While rebutting another post here on Lemmy, I ran into this. This says exactly what I want to say.
I am not a friend of Biden’s Administration. I think they drug their feet over a variety of things ranging from holding Trump and his goons accountable for January 6th through rulemaking on issues like OTC Birth Control and abortion rights, and yes, I think he’s too quick to please big business. But then I remember what the alternative is, and … well, disappointed in Biden or not, I’m voting for him. Because my wife is a Black bisexual goth woman, four strikes under Team Pepe’s tent. And I have my own strikes for marrying her as a White dude, and respecting her right to not have kids since she doesn’t want them is another strike against me. And I care about my Non-Christian, Gay, Transgender, and Minority friends, and will never willingly subject them to Team Pepe.
On nearly every single issue, not only is he “better than Trump,” he’s actually good. On the environment? Actual progress in the form of a massive infrastructure bill that invests in green energy sources and tamping down on pollution. On education? He’s made student loan forgiveness a central tenet of his policy agenda. On the economy? He’s gotten inflation under control and the economy is actually doing great now.
The elephant in the room is Israel and Palestine, of course, but I wish people would pause and think before knee-jerk reacting to… not even his policies there, just headlines about his policies.
The fact of the matter is that the Middle East is a fucking mess and Israel is currently run by a government hell-bent on making it ten times worse, but Israel actually falling and the conflict overtaking the entire region would be a global catastrophe. Biden is doing what he can to pressure Netanyahu over the insane and genocidal treatment of Palestinians while not giving Iran and others the sense that they have free rein to invade. (And for FUCK’S sake, can we stop pretending Iran is suddenly the good guys? They’re supplying arms to Russia.)
This is a nuanced, complex, and fragile situation, and like it or not, Biden is exactly the right kind of person for the presidency at a time like this. Not only that, Trump would make it ten thousand times worse on purpose, because it would please Putin to see Russia’s influence in the Middle East overtake that of the United States.
There is literally only one sane choice on the ballot this year.
Yeah, agreed on everything. Dark Brandon, you have my vote.
Netanyahu is a madman though and I hope he sees his day in international court for these crimes.
Oh, absolutely. The most despicable thing about him is also very Trumpian: He’s maintaining a grip on power to try to stifle an ongoing corruption and bribery case against him.
The sooner that man is out of power and in prison, the better.
There is literally only one sane choice on the ballot this year.
Which is the real problem, has been a problem since before I could vote, and is a problem that cannot be fixed.
I actually think it can be fixed, but doing so is hard work. It requires:
- Full and unreserved repudiation of Trumpism/fascism.
- Codifying the norms and standards he violated (and continues to violate) into law.
- Creating federal legislation that clarifies exactly what “emoluments” are to prevent the office of the presidency from ever being used for self-enrichment again.
- Going after every single Russia-compromised politician. Make politicians scared to get in bed with Vladimir Putin.
- Figuring out a way to cut off the sewage pipeline leading from Russian troll factories to our TV and computer screens.
- Implement ranked-choice voting at all levels.
If we’re shooting for the stars, for election reform, I think we might need proportional representation. First-past-the-post is only one problem in our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting system.
There are issues with that sort of system too, though I’d consider it preferable. We have a decent distribution of parties in parliament here in Sweden, but it’s still kind of tough to find a party you really jive with. At least you have options, but generally it’s all compromises and nothing really fits at all.
I think that’s always going to be the case. I’m not sure how to fix that beyond direct democracy, and even then, you generally still have to have some group drafting the laws and most people only get to decide yes or no. Trying to govern a large group of people on a large number of issues is just a hard problem.
Implement ranked-choice voting at all levels
Ranked is better than our current system, but STAR and approval would be even better.
If we are doing election reform, we should go for the best.
I think it’s possible. Generally, some form of ranked choice is happening in democratic strongholds. Shut out the fascists, and you get a broader range of Democrats.
THANK YOU. This is what I was wanting to say.
The Middle East is a mess. Israel is hated by literally everyone around them, and I guarantee you that Russia is waiting in the wings for us to do the stupid thing and stop backing Israel. It would solidify Russia’s ties with Iran, weaken America’s stance in the Middle East, and make us look bad internationally. I guaranfuckingtee you that if Israel gets glassed by its numerous opponents in the Middle East because America held up aid over Gaza, that shit will be spun WORLD WIDE as America giving in to Antisemitism, which will be hung STRAIGHT on the Global Left’s shoulders. It’s fucking transparent. And calling Biden a genocidal Zionist just plays RIGHT into Russia and the Global Right’s agenda. Again, if you’re saying that bullshit, you’re either part of the Right-Wing attack on the Left, or you are a useful idiot being leveraged by the Global Right as a weapon to hit the Left with.
Oh, if I only had more Upvotes to give you, kescusay. :)
Israel is hated by literally everyone around them…
Not to mention that Netanyahu staying in power (similarly to what will happen with Trump) is the only thing keeping him out of dealing with legal accountability. He can’t afford to lose any power.
I guaranfuckingtee you that if Israel gets glassed by its numerous opponents in the Middle East because America held up aid over Gaza.
I don’t see how america holding up aid will instantly result in Israel getting glassed. It should be theoretically feasible to stop aid to Israel unless a) Israel stops its murderous campaign in Gaza or b) Israel comes under attack from a non Palestinian country. Unless Israel will fall within a few days, the US should be able to back them in case of an attack even though aid was previously being held back.
I’m a little confused, I didn’t realize that US stop supporting Israel would make them look weak. It would make them look strong in my books, especially if all the money is used for Ukraine.
As someone not from a western country, people always hated US using their military to police the globe.
Edit:
The situation is like the strong boyfriend defending their crazy partner. They look weak for bending over backwards for craziness.
I agree with your first two paragraphs, but disagree with you minimizing the conflict with the rest. The Israel Palestine conflict isn’t a mess because it’s in the Middle East or ancient tribal grudges or religion or any of that. It’s because one group wanted another group’s land and so they decided to take it even though people already lived there. And now a genocide is happening. Same thing happened in the US, Canada, Australia, it’s basic settler colonialism, but happening recently enough that we can try to stop it this time. He’s acting way too slow. It’s a hard line for a lot of people, and for good reason. That’s the biggest crime you can do basically.
It’s one of the simplest situations in the world right now. And Biden hasn’t done anything about it but words and some small aid towards Palestinians. He needs to start taking actual action to stop the killing and start denying weapons to Israel, censuring them in the UN, using sanctions, things like that, that they’d be doing for any other country, like Russia. Netanyahu is making Biden look very weak. Iran has no reason to invade, that’s a silly worry. There’s no evidence that would happen. And Israel can defend itself with all the weapons they already have. The only reason Biden is acting slow is because he’s a self-professed Zionist and Israel Stan, and has been his whole life.
And Iran isn’t the “good guys” but that also doesn’t mean they’re the “bad guys” for retaliating when they’re attacked, that just invites other nations to keep doing that. Same excuse we give for helping Ukraine stop Russia. International law is there for a reason. The US has done plenty of horrible stuff to all of South America, that shouldn’t give them the freedom to start killing our officials or attacking near or at embassies. In this situation, we’re the ones defending the bad guys trying to ravage this conflict, which is Israel.
But on all other topics, Biden is good. But this is just an important one for a lot of people. This is the most we’ve been involved in causing ethnic cleansing since manifest destiny and the Native Americans. We have the chance to at least not enable a genocide and ethnic cleansing campaign from a country that we directly supply the weapons for, and we’re blowing it.
Your analysis of the Middle East completely disregards religion?? AND the history of conflict between the various powers?
…you sure you’re not over simplifying it?
Religion is used as an excuse now, but revisionist Zionism was actually originally a very secular movement. Now it’s one post of the Zionist tent but still not the only one. In the same way that religion in the US is often just a means to end to gain voters and power, the same is true in Israel, but to gain land.
And there are conflicts between the various powers involved, it’s how Israel succeeded to even become an apartheid state, Britain and France really fucked this situation up good, for example, but it all still comes down to a population trying to displace another population. Usually everything other argument is put up to obfuscate this fact. I’m just trying to cut through brass tacks (is that right? Just realized I’ve never used this phrase lol). Of course I’m simplifying out as well, and there’s a history to learn about it all, but people often use it as an excuse to dismiss because it’s too “complicated”. It is, but not as much as people think, is all I’m basically saying.
You’re getting down to brass tacks.
That was it 😅 Thanks lol
So obviously I don’t want to see the massacre of the Israelis any more than the Palestinians, but if “Israel fell” why would the conflict overtake the whole region? Israel’s existence, and constant poking of the hornets nests, is the catalyst for instability in the region. If it went away, wouldn’t there be relative peace over there? I’m not advocating for it… Just a thought experiment.
A couple of reasons…
First, because any such fall would be slooooooooow. Israel wouldn’t fall quickly, it would take a long time and would be absolutely catastrophic for everyone on all sides of the conflict, because they would take a lot of Iran and others with them.
Second, because it would reduce western, secular influence in the region considerably, while massively increasing Russia’s influence. Russia doesn’t give a shit about stability and quality of life in the region, they just want vassal states from which to work to expand. Russia doesn’t think any country that isn’t Russia should exist, especially near them.
Western influence in the region has been a curse on the Middle East, and most other places for that matter.
Na, Islam does a fine job of creating horrors while fighting itself. Like using children to clear minefields, for example.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/iran-iraq-war-child-soldiers-mines/
I just like to think that we’re currently playing the Weimar Germany game. Let Trump win and you’ll have given the Republicans decades of power if not more. They’ve been planning for years to control the government through the supreme court, you think this is the worst they can do?
For those wanting acceleration towards collapse, that’s not guaranteed, and will cause many deaths in the process if it does, and there probably still won’t be any guarantee or high likelihood of some sorta takeover by the proletariat or what have you. Seeing as how most of the militant groups in the US are likely to be right wing, all you’ll have is a right wing take over after a collapse.
Democratic strategists, liberal pundits are making a living off doubting President Joe Biden’s viability in the 2024 presidential election. Why?
Because they need it to be a horse race to get keep people’s attention. They write those things because they get clicks and views and comments.
Notice how they’re not writing about how our system is failing everyone by being this way. That’s because they like the system this way because it keeps them on top.
If you think the system is failing us now, you must have been asleep from 2017 through 2020, especially for the part where unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude, and beat the shit out of them before releasing them. The system REALLY failed us then.
I get it. You think the Democrats don’t represent your issues in the Congress. I don’t agree with that, as a good half of the achievements listed here benefit the little guy in one way or another, but yeah. Biden answers to the moneyed class, and that is bipartisan. But you only get 26 out of 100 people in the room to flat out come out and say “Yeah, I’m with that guy,” pointing to you. In the polls, you might net another 25 people, and 49 people vote for the R in this accursed D and R duopoly we call our government. But pay attention to those numbers. You can’t afford to lose a lot of people. If Jill Stein picks off 3 of your 51 people, it’s 49 Trump, 48 Biden, 3 Stein, and all 51 of the anti-Trump voters suffer with Trump. Those are the rules the game is played by.
As I said to the other person arguing that it’s wrong to expect people to vote for people who don’t give them exactly what they want, I agree. We need better choices. But there are smart ways to go about doing this, and dumb ways to go about doing it. And allowing the authoritarian jerk in isn’t just a dumb way to go about doing it. It’s a dumb and cruel way. And understand if you’re a White Liberal choosing to vote Third Party or stay home and not vote Joe Biden the Genocidal Monster: you are benefiting from your White Privilege. You, like me, can keep your head down and pretend to be a Loyal Member of the Race, a Good American who pays your taxes and salutes the flag. You can scrub your Social Media posts and hide behind your anonymity on places like Lemmy, and go about your life. You will not be the first put into the cages by the Trump ICE. You will not be the first rounded up and deported to a foreign land with no citizenship. You will not be the first detained by the military during protests. Many, many people will pay the price for your privilege of voting third party or staying home because you won’t vote for no ‘genocider’. But remember two things First, you will have brought the genocide you say you oppose onto American shores. Second, once they are done with the migrants, the transgender people, the gays, the ‘sinful’ women protesting their rights to get a safe abortion, and so on, there’ll be nobody left to protect you when they turn their attention to you.
Again. Biden ain’t no bed of roses. But one of two people will win in 2024, just like one of two people would win in 2020, and one of two people would win in 2016. I consider you all who voted Stein or Johnson in 2016 or stayed home in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania to be responsible for what Trump did in 2017 through 2020, and if Trump wins in 2024, I’ll hold you all accountable for what happens in 2025 and beyond.
tl;dr - The system is broken but we still have to pretend it isn’t because otherwise its brokenness will allow terrible things to happen and the people who do those things will face no repercussions.
the people who do those things will face no repercussion
What do y’all think is going to happen when Trump wins?
tl;dr - The system is broken but we still have to pretend it isn’t because otherwise its brokenness will allow terrible things to happen and the people who do those things will face no repercussions.
No, you can either use the broken system and try to minimize the damage done (by voting for Biden) or you can stomp your feet and refuse to use the system by not voting, or voting 3rd party, and in doing so allowing Trump to get reelected which will do great harm to you and everyone else who isn’t named Trump. It’s really a simple choice. Meanwhile, work to change the system. Join your local political party and support progressive candidates who also want to change the system. Hell, run for local office yourself and fight to change the system.
You have a an angry bear charging at you your family and there’s no where to run. All you have is a dull knife. Do you try and fight off the bear or do you throw up your hands and scream it’s not fair while the bear kills your family?
Nowhere in my post did I say anything about voting.
Just keep pretending that this is a valid and legitimate government just like all the other centrists.
Fuck me for wanting something other than a dull knife to protect my family, right?
you are benefiting from your White Privilege
This is no longer effective rhetoric in 2024
if Trump wins in 2024, I’ll hold you all accountable for what happens in 2025 and beyond
Why should anyone care about you or your opinions? You don’t have the power to “hold” anyone “accountable”. So don’t pretend that you do
The working class deserves Medicare for All as a right, universal housing as a right, and living wages as a right. The working class has no interest in seeing its money sent to fund genocide in Gaza or a seemingly endless war in Ukraine against Russian aggression.
Unfortunately Biden does not represent the working class, he represents the ruling class, as does Trump. The working class is disillusioned with American bourgeois democracy and their upcoming nonparticipation in the presidential election could quite possibly result in another Trump victory. If that occurs then it will purely be the fault of Biden and the Democratic Party
you think the system is failing us now, you must have been asleep from 2017 through 2020, especially for the part where unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude, and beat the shit out of them before releasing them. The system REALLY failed us then.
Straw man argument, those police are not part of the executive branch, nor were they punished or prohibited from doing so again by the new executive.
get it. You think the Democrats don’t represent your issues in the Congress. I don’t agree with that, as a good half of the achievements listed here benefit the little guy in one way or another, but yeah. Biden answers to the moneyed class, and that is bipartisan. But you only get 26 out of 100 people in the room to flat out come out and say “Yeah, I’m with that guy,” pointing to you. In the polls, you might net another 25 people, and 49 people vote for the R in this accursed D and R duopoly we call our government. But pay attention to those numbers. You can’t afford to lose a lot of people. If Jill Stein picks off 3 of your 51 people, it’s 49 Trump, 48 Biden, 3 Stein, and all 51 of the anti-Trump voters suffer with Trump. Those are the rules the game is played by.
I think this is ignoring op’s main point… That the inherent problems that are causing the vast majority of our problems have gone largely unaddressed by both the democratic and Republican party. COVID marked the largest wealth transfer from the middle and lower class to the rich in our nation’s history, and we weren’t doing so great before that. So unless Biden is hell bent on a very progressive tax scheme that would transfer more of that hoarded money back into the system… I would hesitate to really claim he’s doing anything meaningful.
As I said to the other person arguing that it’s wrong to expect people to vote for people who don’t give them exactly what they want, I agree. We need better choices. But there are smart ways to go about doing this, and dumb ways to go about doing it.
You are conflating someone wanting more choices, or wantinf someone like Joe Biden to change his stance/policy based on what the vast majority of his voters want.
The complaint isn’t that Joe Biden isn’t exactly what I want, it’s that every time someone lays valid criticism at his feet and army of simps comes out to defend him with comparisons to trump.
And allowing the authoritarian jerk in isn’t just a dumb way to go about doing it. It’s a dumb and cruel way. And understand if you’re a White Liberal choosing to vote Third Party or stay home and not vote Joe Biden the Genocidal Monster: you are benefiting from your White Privilege.
Again, op didn’t say that he was going to vote third party, he just made valid complaints. In stead of saying, well yeah, we should probably change our position on that, you equated his complaint to racism.
You, like me, can keep your head down and pretend to be a Loyal Member of the Race, a Good American who pays your taxes and salutes the flag. You can scrub your Social Media posts and hide behind your anonymity on places like Lemmy, and go about your life. You will not be the first put into the cages by the Trump ICE. You will not be the first rounded up and deported to a foreign land with no citizenship. You will not be the first detained by the military during protests. Many, many people will pay the price for your privilege of voting third party or staying home because you won’t vote for no ‘genocider’.
Again, a strawman argument, mixed with some unprompted race baiting. I for one am not white, and have several complaints with Joe Biden and his presidency.
Again. Biden ain’t no bed of roses.
Which is inherently the problem. If progressive voters are staying at home, it’s not the fault of the voter. It’s the fault of the democratic party for claiming a geriatric center right is the best the party has to offer.
This is like blaming the progressive party for Hillary loosing, despite polling worse than Bernie in swing states. And despite her ignoring Michigan on the campaign trail.
This is why Democrats loose elections, because they would rather loose running a center right than win with an actual left leaning candidate.
My vote is inconsequential, living in a deep red state and what have you. But, I’m not mystified why people would stay home or vote third party. It’s upsetting, but my discontent is largely aimed at the party who refuses to change based on their constituents wants/needs. That when I have complaints about their neoliberal economics, or their participation in an ethnic cleansing, I get told by some white liberal that Im just “benefitting from my (non-existent)white privilege”.
Straw man argument, those police are not part of the executive branch, nor were they punished or prohibited from doing so again by the new executive.
The police I was speaking of with the line 'unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude` referred to the Federal agents that abducted and abused people in Seattle protesting the police you are mentioning murdering a Black dude. Before you throw an ad-hominem masquerading as an accusation of logical fallacy, maybe try reading the entire damn sentence and understanding what it says?
The complaint isn’t that Joe Biden isn’t exactly what I want, it’s that every time someone lays valid criticism at his feet and army of simps comes out to defend him with comparisons to trump.
Because you have one of two options, Biden or Trump, in the upcoming election, and if Biden doesn’t win, Trump will, and my argument is that will be WORSE. If you’re REALLY interested in holding Biden accountable, you should be turning out in EVERY election, and voting the progressive in the primary, and the Democrat in the general. But know it’s an uphill battle. Only 26 of America can be cajoled into labelling themselves a Liberal, let alone a Progressive, and 74% of America, when asked what they are, pick Moderate or Conservative. I’ll come back to that in a bit.
Again, a strawman argument, mixed with some unprompted race baiting. I for one am not white, and have several complaints with Joe Biden and his presidency.
To borrow Biden’s phrasing for this, what a load of malarkey. Again, try reading the whole thing. If you’re not White, not only was this not directed at you, if you let Trump get into office, you just committed an own-goal. Then again, you can be anything you want on the Internet, where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, the Children are FBI Agents, and nobody, and I mean nobody knows I’m a cat, so it’s not like a White Conservative can pretend to be a Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden who will stay home. I mean, I am not saying you’re that guy, but that guy IS out there and so it’s my job to tell you if you’re a minority that has run into that ‘Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden’ that if you do the stupid thing and stay home or vote Third Party in the General, Trump’s telling you in his own words that he’ll be retribution against you for all the times you inconvenienced a White dude…
Which is inherently the problem. If progressive voters are staying at home, it’s not the fault of the voter. It’s the fault of the democratic party for claiming a geriatric center right is the best the party has to offer.
And here is where I come back to the ratio of Lefties vs. Righties. You can’t convince more than 26% of people to say they are liberals. Don’t we all get a say, including the ~25% of us who will vote a Democrat in but don’t think we’re Liberals? And don’t forget: that’s 26% who say they are Liberals, not Progressives. So even people who share the same label with you may not agree with all your priorities. The United States functions on a consensus building system. You have GOT to convince a large number of people you’re right in order to build the voter coalition that gets you elected. And that means Biden gets to walk tightropes between the various constituencies that got him into office.
Nobody is saying you MUST go vote for Biden. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head and forcing you to hit that button for Biden. Stay home and don’t vote or vote for Jill Stein. That’s your right as an American! Gawd bless 'murica fuck yeah! But what you don’t have a right to do is announce that choice, or even hint of that choice, without somebody like me pulling up and pointing out the glaring flaw in your plan. It’s not a good plan. It’s a STUPID plan and you are STUPID for coming up with it. The good plan is to start RIGHT FUCKING NOW and put your money and your body where your mouth is and support progressives across your state in Primary elections, and have conversations with the 40% of Americans who don’t like labels like ‘Liberal’ or ‘Conservative’ why they should like your label and convince them that your answers really ARE the right answers and that they should vote with your guy or gal despite the big money moderate squishy dem saying they aren’t. It works! Look at Ocasio-Cortez! TYT gets this, and they understand why Team Blue is the only answer. Team Red made it clear that ‘Voting for the perfect candidate in the closest Major Party Primary, then voting for the winner of that Primary in the General, and keeping the heat on the winner’ WORKS. That’s how they went from Corporatist Party 2 to Corporatist Party 2 with engaged base to Team Pepe in a matter of 20 years. You should have started that playbook back in 2000 as well, but like they say…the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, and the second best time is RIGHT NOW.
Start by holding your nose and voting Biden, because Trump
willHAS destroyed everything you care for and promises to double down if he wins in November.The police I was speaking of with the line 'unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude` referred to the Federal agents that abducted and abused people in Seattle protesting the police you are mentioning murdering a Black dude. Before you throw an ad-hominem masquerading as an accusation of logical fallacy, maybe try reading the entire damn sentence and understanding what it says?
And with what authority can presidents order federal agents to secretly arrest US citizens…? My point still stands. The president is not in charge of federal officers working the streets, Trump had nothing to do with that, they were just doing cop shit, they are still doing cop shit.
Because you have one of two options, Biden or Trump, in the upcoming election, and if Biden doesn’t win, Trump will, and my argument is that will be WORSE.
No shit. That doesn’t mean I have to pretend the old man is a decent person or president. If you want progressive changes you have to be willing to share your discontent. If the old man thinks everyone is happy with his ethnic cleansing, why would he stop?
If you’re REALLY interested in holding Biden accountable, you should be turning out in EVERY election, and voting the progressive in the primary, and the Democrat in the general.
Lol, I’m willing to bet I’ve been voting for longer than you’ve been an adult. And like I said, it doesn’t really matter who I vote for in my locality, my state literally doesn’t have a Democrat in anything higher than the city office.
To borrow Biden’s phrasing for this, what a load of malarkey. Again, try reading the whole thing. If you’re not White, not only was this not directed at you, if you let Trump get into office, you just committed an own-goal. Then again, you can be anything you want on the Internet, where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, the Children are FBI Agents, and nobody, and I mean nobody knows I’m a cat, so it’s not like a White Conservative can pretend to be a Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden who will stay home.
Oh, I’m sorry I didn’t know that the people of color could not criticize the president without being a race betrayer…
I mean, I am not saying you’re that guy, but that guy IS out there and so it’s my job to tell you if you’re a minority that has run into that ‘Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden’ that if you do the stupid thing and stay home or vote Third Party in the General, Trump’s telling you in his own words that he’ll be retribution against you for all the times you inconvenienced a White dude…
Lol, I’m not black either. Pretty typical of white liberals to only think in a dichotomy of just black and white, and primarily only around election season…
You do understand that you’ve done nothing but prove my point right? I didn’t say I wouldn’t vote for the guy, I just said we should be able to criticize him without people like you implying it is racist to do so.
You can’t convince more than 26% of people to say they are liberals. Don’t we all get a say, including the ~25% of us who will vote a Democrat in but don’t think we’re Liberals? And don’t forget: that’s 26% who say they are Liberals, not Progressives.
A single study that only details how people feel about loaded political definitions is hardly an argument. Democrats overwhelmingly approve of increasing taxes on the wealthy, of reacting to our rapid climate change, to not involving ourselves with a genocide, and to policies like Medicare for all.
Americans are just overwhelmingly undereducated when it comes to political theory and language.
Nobody is saying you MUST go vote for Biden. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head and forcing you to hit that button for Biden. Stay home and don’t vote or vote for Jill Stein.
Lol, what have you been doing all over this thread? All I did was criticize the man and you essentially called me a race betrayer, and simultaneously doubted my ethnicity…
The good plan is to start RIGHT FUCKING NOW and put your money and your body where your mouth is and support progressives across your state in Primary elections, and have conversations with the 40% of Americans who don’t like labels like ‘Liberal’ or ‘Conservative’ why they should like your label and convince them that your answers really ARE the right answers and that they should vote with your guy or gal despite the big money moderate squishy dem saying they aren’t.
Lol, you really took that study as a literal reflection of American demographics… Did you ever think that maybe people don’t like labeling themselves?
Also, I’ve been involved in organizing in local politics for nearly two decades now. Mostly just working with NGO once the democratic party died in the state, but that happened fairly recently.
Again, my entire point was that progressives should be able lay legitimate criticism towards the president without being lectured too about party loyalty. And that it is not an accomplishment to only be considered a decent president when compared to quite possibly the worst president in the history of the country.
You response was to become a petulant little child, who was so self righteous they thought they could whitesplain racial politics to a person on color. Bravo.
You’re ignoring the big elephant in the room. This whole “lesser evilism” schtick that the bootlicker Dems have been relying on since 2016? It’s inevitably going to hit rock-bottom - and soon, too.
The two party system always comes down to who runs the least shittiest candidate.
For me. That’s not always who wins.
And as soon as the shittiest one wins, the bar for “least shittiest” drops a whole lot lower - it’s a race to the bottom.
Of course, none of this affects policy - the class who benefits from the status quo will get what they want irregardless of who is in the Waffle House.
Stop maligning Waffle House by comparing it to the White House.
Right? Say “Huddle House” if you’re going to do that!
“lesser evilism” is the entire system, since nearly the beginning.
Tell me you’re not a student of history without telling me you’re not a student of history.
Regardless of the two party systems race to the bottom, 2016 saw the formal introduction of the Pied Piper strategy by the DNC during Hillarys campaign. Formally boosting the other parties evil factor by supporting trump and making the “vote for us, we arent them” the whole schtick.
Thank you… that’s what I was referring to. Lots of people on here can’t seem to remember even back as recently as Obama’s campaign.
How so?
It’s been lesser-evilism since the country was founded
Maybe the US but believe it or not there are functioning democracies outside the US.
This whole “lesser evilism” schtick that the bootlicker Dems have been relying on since 2016?
Since 1948 at least.
No. Obama didn’t have to rely on it to get into the Waffle House. Back then, the Dems could still promise some kind of “progressivism” (even though they never had any intention of delivering it).
Now look at them.
I don’t think that’s true I think they really tried to pass universal healthcare and were basically kneecapped by 1 or 2 democrats.
and were basically kneecapped by 1 or 2 democrats.
Yeah… it’s amazing how that always seems to happen to anything that the rich don’t like.
They tried to pass public option, not universal healthcare. Plus, if the rest of the democrats had really wanted it they could have done away with the filibuster and had an 8+ vote margin. But they didn’t really want it, and they wanted a convenient excuse for why they couldn’t do it, so the filibuster remains in place. And people still buy the flimsy excuse.
Fair point
What kind of alarmism is this? If you want choice, push for ranked choice voting and dismantling of the republican party, then you’re free to establish however many new parties you want. Lots of countries manage to have 10+ parties on parliament
let’s just embrace the greater evil/demonstrable threat now then, shall we?
(/s)
Let the hate flow through you. Feel the power of the dark side!
And the Democratic Party needs to pull its head out of its ass and embrace its base, rather than smugly scheme in ways that are ruining lives.
I have no problem with Biden’s job as president. In fact, I got into a big argument with someone a few weeks ago because they keep parroting anti-Biden propaganda from astroturfed pro-Palestine social media groups.
Biden has been doing a great job for the most part, on a number of fronts.But I’m sort of bittersweet on that, because the harder I look, the more I see the illusion of choice, and an intentional effort to barely keep up with the will of the people.
2016, Bernie vs Clinton. He had the votes, but the party pulled some superdelegate shenanigans to give it to Clinton. And with the same confidence of someone who had just been handed a layup in the primary, she managed to smugly fumble the presidency by a tiny margin.
Post 2020 - Democrats had a majority, and instead of doing things the populous wanted, they wrung their hands about two candidates the Democratic Party had helped elect - Sinema and Manchin - and whether or not they were going to block bills.
The other day I did a deep dive into Elissa Slotkin - a candidate so unlikeable she had to move to a much more certain democratic district when districts were redrawn. When the senate seat came up, the Democratic Party cut deals with more liberal candidates who are vastly more likable, to get them to not run in the primary. So now Michigan is going to wind up with an unwanted centrist that used to be an ‘analyst’ for the CIA during the Iraq war. She’s going to pretend to be a democrat while being the same sort of heel the Sinema or Manchin was.That’s just the people. In their post 2020-majority they could have done so much legislatively that they didn’t even bother considering - like campaign finance reform or expanding the courts, or even changing the rules around judicial nominees to prevent future shenanigans, but that would impact their bottom line or their ability to inspire panic at election-time. They could have strengthened the ACA, but that hurts some of the corporations that donate to them. Or do things to help people so that their rights wouldn’t be at risk - like codifying Roe, instead of allowing it to continue to be a wedge issue that destroys lives, but gets people to vote.
The Democratic (and Republican) Party is playing us all.
I’m not disaffected with Biden. I’m disaffected with a political party that nakedly fucks around to preserve the status quo, rather than embracing their base and winning with an encouraged and engaged populous. They lack the mandate to lead because they only desire to govern. (In contrast to the Republicans which lack the mandate to lead, are unable to govern, and only desire power and to abuse the government for personal gain.)So go ahead, give me the downvotes.
This wouldn’t be an issue if we had ranked choice and a coalition government instead of this ‘winner take all’ nonsense that just incentivizes entrenchment rather than inspiration. But, you know, that doesn’t help the businesses that are political parties, so they ain’t gonna vote on it.You make valid points and we ultimately agree that we should change our voting system. But that happens from the ground up, voting for a third party in the presidential election does nothing.
What are they going to do? “Oh no, people are unhappy with the two parties…well we better dilute our power and give them ranked voting.”
Never going to happen. But you can work locally to get the changes and encourage that elsewhere. Voting third party is worse than slacktavism, as it’s both pointless and counter productive.
Don’t try to play the game you want to be playing, play the one you’re currently playing.
Voting third party is worse than slacktavism, as it’s both pointless and counter productive.
Can you elaborate? Do you think it’s pointless if more red voters go for third party?
The only good argument I’ve seen against voting third party comes down to: dem voters are more likely to vote third party so more voting third party means more red votes.
Like wouldn’t it be a good thing in your eyes if existing red voters voted third party?
You are demonstrating my point why it’s counter productive: you’re less likely to get something resembling what you want, and more likely to get something almost exactly the opposite of what you want.
To elaborate, the issue is our FPTP voting system. With rational actors, it’s going to tend towards a two party system. The simple example is that if you have a progressive candidate and a liberal candidate, who both pull 30% of the vote, and some far right wing candidate that pulls the remaining 40%. . . every time the right wing candidate is going to win, and the liberals/progressives, who would be mostly happy with the other candidate left wing candidate, are going to end up with the exact opposite of what they want. So these two groups act rationally and coalesce around a single candidate, so now they get 60% of the vote and win every time, while not getting everything they may want.
So even if a third party does win at some point, which has happened in the past, it will quickly return right back to a two party system . . .usually because the third party won and the people whose vote was split realize that it was a terrible strategy.
So sure, if it was right wingers splitting the vote, I would be more likely to get what I want and that would be fantastic. But despite being dumbasses that will vote for Trump, they are still rational enough to realize that not coalescing around a single candidate would be a disaster for them, so they also have a single candidate.
And now that the parties are entrenched, there is no way that the people who have worked up through this system are going to relinquish the control they have. It has to come from the bottom up, or via some (likely violent) revolution. The latter would be more miserable for everyone, so if people really care about not having a two party system, they should be getting involved in local politics and getting it to switch the voting system first, and having that filter up. It’s not easy or fast, but it’s way better than the alternative.
Circling back - I initially did not respond because I thought that my response would be caustic and catty.
It seemed that the first two paragraphs you wrote were in response to me, but the rest were just the same canned responses that get shared with everyone who throws out a ‘voting is pointless’ message. And that’s not really my stance, or my comment. It kind of upset me, so I felt that I couldn’t have responded politely at the time.
It is a reasonable conclusion to draw from my statements, but I don’t believe people should refrain from voting. I just believe political parties should deliver on their promises, and if they don’t deliver, then they should stop making those promises, or make way for parties that do.What are they going to do? “Oh no, people are unhappy with the two parties…well we better dilute our power and give them ranked voting.”
Yes.
It’s not ‘the norm’ as far as beliefs go, but I do kind of think that should be exactly what they do. They are here to lead and govern. That is what public service is. It is service to the public.
If they behave in protectionist ways for the sake of their party’s over the public interest, then they lack the mandate to represent the public.
Leadership is sometimes sacrificing the power of your party for the good of the people. But that’s also irrelevant as an argument. If democrats represent the ideals they claim to represent, then next time they have a trifecta, they should move towards expanding democracy at a federal level, rather than leaving it to states. Leaving it at the state level guarantees the sort of gridlock that holds back local organizing - only certain kinds of ballot initiatives are even seriously considered at a state level because it’ll harm that state’s power on the national stage. In terms of ideology, more U.S. citizens align with democrats than republicans (but huge numbers of left leaning folks don’t vote due to lack of representation). Their political aims would see more progress with a better represented (and presumably more engaged) populous in a coalition government where their ideas can enjoy broader support.
But they don’t run on ideas or by providing better governance. They’re a business that relies on laws and marketing campaigns to succeed in a given ‘business cycle.’Yes.
You missed the point: It is a rhetorical question. Of course they aren’t going to do that. It’s not how it works. These people got into power that way, and there is no way in a representative democracy that you are going to get enough of the reps who gained the power a certain way to give up that way. You are arguing what they should do, and I agree with you. But the problem is that focusing on that is just blind idealism. I’m pointing out the dirty reality of how politics works.
And this assault on “well washington democrats aren’t idealistic do-gooders!” is just a counter productive position (unless you want Reps to win instead). They are humans who have human faults, and primarily made up of people who have sought out the power, so a lot of those faults are going to be amplified.
But that’s the game we have right now. Ranked choice is great, but it ain’t going to come from people wringing their hands over “Well, washington democrats with their slim majority weren’t able to force through sweeping changes that some of their members don’t even agree with!” It’s going to come from getting your hands dirty locally.
It’s super easy to be like “I don’t like either party.” Good for you. I’ve known plenty of edgy 14 year olds who have been able to “reason” themselves to this same conclusion. But nothing you propose is realistic or will solve it.
In their post 2020-majority they could have done so much legislatively that they didn’t even bother considering - like campaign finance reform or expanding the courts, or even changing the rules around judicial nominees to prevent future shenanigans, but that would impact their bottom line or their ability to inspire panic at election-time.
This conspiracy theory is so weird.
How exactly are legislative Democrats supposed to accomplish these things when their bare-bones Senate majority depends on Manchin and Sinema? I mean really, specifically, how are they supposed to get things done?
Y’all are always like “they should do more” but you won’t give them the numbers to do it. In a 60/40 Senate we can make wonderful things happen, but you just won’t give it to us.
When the Democratic Party did have a 60-40 in 2009 they did not act. Where they did they self imposed compromises with the GOP or simply didn’t pass legislation they ran on. For example: codifying Roe v Wade with Freedom of Choice Act went from Obama’s alleged first sct in office to “not a top priority.” Then they got annihilated in 2010.
We know from precedent that when Democrats are elected there is no indication they will even promote what they or the party ran on.
Recent example: John Fetterman. Ran as a progressive, immediately said he wasn’t progressive once in office and now pushing for right wing immigration laws.
Republicans get what they vote for. Democrats do not. Which is why these threads are so ignorant and frustrsting to read.
They had a 60-40 majority for only a few months, and they passed a massive expansion of healthcare that has saved thousands of lives and lifted countless people out of poverty. And that’s after Republicans gutted it by killing the individual mandate.
these threads are so ignorant and frustrsting to read.
At least we agree on one thing. But you’re the one spreading the ignorance.
The ACA is the self compromising I was referencing. I thought that was clear, so I apologize for your feeling so provoked by my lack of explicitly referencing it.
I mean, doesn’t change much. You’re still saying that one of the greatest pieces of legislation in our lifetimes is worthless, so you’re still spreading ignorance.
I called it self-compromise within the party, not worthless, at any rate.
The greatest piece of legislation in our lifetime being a repackaging of the Republican Mitt Romney system is rather on-brand for this topic.
I’ll be one of the first to admit, I don’t like Biden. But, if you need to be convinced that he’s better than Trump, you’re an absolute buffoon!! Trump is worse than the shit you stepped on, on your walk. Trump is the worst thing to ever happen to the American presidency. He’s the closest we’ll get to Adolf Hitler and he relishes in that. He thinks it makes him “a bad boy” or someone moving against the curve…and he’s right, he’s moving against the curve. He’s moving against it in 4 straight lines that will bend consecutively in 90° angles to the right. My point is, TRUMP IS NAZI SCUM WHO’S WORSE THAN THE SHIT ON YOUR HEEL
Why do you always assume we have to be convinced he’s not as bad as Trump? That’s obvious.
What unconvinced voters need to be given isn’t fear “vote for us or the worse guy wins!”, it’s hope. What is the Biden administration doing to improve the lives of the working class? Not just saying, but accomplishing? There are some small wins they’ve done, even if they’re a far cry from what was promised in 2020. Focus on that. The few people that got or are getting student loan forgiveness. The baby steps towards making medicine affordable. The acknowledgement that man-made climate change is real.
“Vote for us or else!” is not inspiring.
It’s not inspiring in the slightest bit. We are in a terrible position and we have been for my entire life and beyond. A 2 party system does not work because ultimately that 2 party system becomes the rich vs the poor.
We need 3rd, 4th and 5th party candidates not just holding office, but in the Supreme Court. We need term limits at all levels of government. We need free healthcare for all residents. We need to take corporate interests and money out of Washington. We need to erase these cockamamie gerrymandered voting maps and implement fair elections and ensure easy access to voting for all eligible citizens. We need to invest in more in education and less in bombs and super-soldier police. We need to hold elected officials accountable for their actions and ensure transparency in government processes. We need to elect leaders who prioritize unity, civil discourse, and the well-being of all citizens. We need to put all the issues up for votes and stop letting politicians decide our present and our future.
There’s a lot we need to do and it’s going to take a long while time and sustained effort to create a lasting change.
But, it’s 2024 and this is our current system and this year we have one of two choices: Joe Biden or Donnie Dickhead. So this year we have to accept that it’s going to have to be one of the two of them as president. But when you’re voting don’t just vote party lines, look into local politics and politicians. Vote in primaries. Vote period. Or, run if you feel so inclined.
Yeah, there are some leftists that try drawing the line at silly points like “oh I won’t vote for someone who supports genocide” but really what’s the big deal? Genocides happen, I think they’re kind of fun sounding. I’m thinking about moving to Israel and helping the IDF finish their extermination of the barbaric “human animals”/natives that have infested their holy land. Biden has self-identified as a Zionist many times before, and I think that’s a beautiful thing. I bet he’d take up arms with me against the parasites if he was still fully sentient. He’s definitely trying his best as president to help them finish cleaning up the trash.
Oh, and yeah only Trump is a fascist. None of the above sounds anything like fascism, don’t worry.
/s
Show me proof of Genocide or stop claiming it’s happening. Just because you can use the word doesn’t mean it’s true. No one has deemed what the IDF has done to be genocide at this point.
Only three genocides in history have been officially recognized under the definition of the term in the 1948 Genocide Convention and led to trials in international criminal tribunals: one against Cham Muslim and ethnic Vietnamese perpetrated by Khmer Rouge leaders in Cambodia in the 1970s, the 1994 Rwandan genocide, and the 1995 Srebrenica Massacre in Bosnia. (The Holocaust occurred before the adoption of the 1948 Convention.) The mass killings of the Yazidis by ISIS in Iraq and of the Rohingya in Myanmar have been recognized as genocide by the United Nations as a whole. Though the US called the killing of Black Africans in the Sudanese region of Darfur between 2003 and 2005 “genocide,” a UN investigation ruled it was not genocide.
Yeah, want to know why the international community doesn’t call the Palestinian genocide a genocide? Because Israel and the U.S reject it lmfao. You’re such a fucking bootlicker.
The only half-coherent argument that some academics make against the genocide classification is that it’s instead an ethnic cleansing. Nobody (except the U.S and Israel) thinks Israel isn’t trying to exterminate the natives.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation
So… instead of providing some kind of actual proof or evidence of your argument, you insult me and post a relatively useless link to a wikipedia article that wouldn’t pass the sniff test in high school.
First time using Wikipedia? There are actually a dozen resources at the bottom. Use those.
Anyway, you didn’t address anything I actually said. You sit back as Israel invades, bombs, and slaughters thousands upon thousands of children for the purposes of wiping out a native people, and you argue about the semantics of genocide. It’s so fucking pathetic, people did the same thing during the Holocaust to try to argue against U.S intervention and it fucking worked, the only reason we intervened was Japan bombing pearl harbor.
Genocide apologists like yourself should go spend a day actually experiencing the fucking genocide, then maybe you’ll have an ounce of compassion. It just sucks having you out here, potentially changing public sentiment away from helping those being genocided. The difference between an indifferent bystander and a genocide enabler is not as large as you’d probably imagine, being the former yourself.
You jump to conclusions with weak arguments and result to insults instead of listening to what I’m saying.
The information I provided isn’t false and neither is yours. There’s some differing opinions on the definitions of genocide. In this case, I would agree that it hasn’t really met that threshold. By the text book definition. That’s all.
It’s not that it’s not terrible. All war is terrible. But I also am of the opinion that violence is part of nature. I accept it as part of life.
There’s a misconception among western intellectuals that emotion and intellect are juxtaposed, that your indifference towards the genocide that is taking place is somehow a virtue. It’s not. It’s your inability to actually comprehend what is going on. If you lived the life of a Palestinian you wouldn’t just be mad, you’d be fucking helpless, and your inability to internalize that and have it impact your view on the world is a common human failing.
If the bombs Israel purposefully dropped on civilians killed someone you cared about, you wouldn’t be on here arguing against people who use the word genocide. People you yourself admit aren’t actually saying anything wrong. You’re trying to move people who are literally just stating facts about the world in an emotionally charged way away from intense language. To what end? Do you actually care? Probably not.
You should develop some empathy. It’s not a weakness.
Biden is actively supporting Nazi style Genocide right now.
But not the figurative one. Literal Nazi Genocide.
And you think Trump would be doing…what, exactly? Let’s not forget Trump Heights
Don’t forget that he actually told an interviewer that Israel should “finish the job”.
Israel recently did the biggest land grab in like 30 years under Joe Biden. Not under Donald Trump. Once again there is no difference except Biden probably being worse.
Trump is a massive moron but he is not stupid enough to escalate into World War 3.
In fact he has already proven he is not that stupid because after the Suleimani assasination Iran retaliated. And Trump then cut off the escalation.
An Abrupt Move That Stunned Aides: Inside Trump’s Aborted Attack on Iran
But barely three hours later, Mr. Trump had changed his mind. Without consulting his vice president, secretary of state or national security adviser, he reversed himself and, with ships readying missiles and airplanes already in the skies, told the Pentagon to call off the airstrikes with only 10 minutes to go. When Vice President Mike Pence and other officials returned to the White House for what they expected would be a long night of monitoring a military operation, they were stunned to learn the attack was off.
That about-face, so typically impulsive, instinctive and removed from any process, proved a decision point for a president who has often threatened to “totally destroy” enemies but at the same time has promised to extricate the United States from Middle East wars. It revealed a commander in chief more cautious than critics have assumed, yet underscored the limited options in a confrontation he had set in motion.
I mean, we all get it. But Biden is worse? What makes you possibly think trump will make smarter and more humane decisions for the Palestinian people?
Have you… Have you seen what Biden has done over the last 6 months? We’re talking literal Holocaust Nazi concentration camp extermination of Palestinians.
Dude… everyone knows you’re a right wing troll here. Why do you keep up with this bullshit. You’re not pro Palestine, you’re just anti-Biden. The proof lies in the fact that nearly everthing you say here is for the purpose of shitting on him.
Just stop man.
Sorry are you the guy that claims israel is not committing Genocide?
Why are you pretending Biden is personally responsible and why do you believe the serial pardoner of war criminals would be better?
And Biden’s administration sanctioned Israel’s settlers for doing those things, while Trump is the man who pardoned multiple war criminals and promised to ban Palestinians from USA
Trump is a moron who don’t understand escalation. If anything, Biden’s handling of Iran’s attack on Israel and negotiations shows he actually knows what he’s doing because both sides have agreed to deescalate after mutual missile attacks on each other’s soil. Trump choosing not to escalate singlehandedly is not a point in his favor, especially since he probably got yelled at for hours about the dangers and then chickened out.
This is flat-out misinformation. But that’s allowed here apparently. Still needs to be called out though.
Imagine being a Genocide denier.
Tf is wrong with u bro
Hyperbole, especially given the historical origin of Hamas as a Waffen-SS Afrikakorp unit.
I don’t know what’s worse the irony of claiming Hamas had anything to do with the Nazis or the fact that many israelis were originally colonists from Apartheid South Africa that moved the israel to continue doing Colonialism and White Nationalism there.
Lies
You’re highly regarded
Democrats need to pull themselves together and figure out what people actually need and want. The bogeyman isn’t a sustainable thing.
Exactly.
Imagine if Coca-Cola tried to shame or guilt people into buying Coca-Cola.
How would that work out.
The guilt tripping and shaming is going to backfire.
To win, you have to inspire people to actually want to vote for you.
Otherwise, they just might not even bother showing up.
Imagine if Coca-Cola tried to shame or guilt people into buying Coca-Cola.
Now imagine there are only 2 possible choices and Pepsi is going to further reduce the control the women in your life have over their own bodies, and other fucked up shit.
Oh wow you’re doing the thing from the comment you’re replying to 🫡
It was a shit analogy given the vast options for soda and the whole 2 options we have for president. Grow up.
No u
Problem is they know exactly what the people want (socialized healthcare, corporations to be held accountable for their actions, to break up monopolies, affordable housing, seriously address climate change, safe food and water, not supporting genocide) only problem is vested interests don’t want that. So the Dems need to figure out how to balance those two things by appeasing the powerful interest and paying lip service to the voters.
So the Dems need to figure out how to balance those two things by appeasing the powerful interest and paying lip service to the voters.
I mean, that’s what they’re doing now, right? “Oh, we all want to do these things, but the big mean republicans won’t let us do them, we’re just smol beans who can’t help it, we couldn’t possibly kill the filibuster or reform the court, it’s our birthday, why do you hate us?”
They know what we need and want they just never have had a supermajority for more than 10 minutes. Our stupid ass elections are always on the razors edge lately so we have around 3 asshole
Republicans pretending to be DemocratsDemocrats in the Senate that just squash anything that would benefit us at the expense of more wealth hoarding at the top.Listen to Democrats running and listen to Republicans running, only one of those groups rely on “hate, hate, hate, be afraid, hate, those people are different and I’ll stop them!”
That’s been the case for over a decade now and there’s still a filibuster. And the court is still only 9 justices. I submit they don’t want to solve it. They don’t want to catch the car.
I believe it’s those same 3 “Democrats” that are the ones that prevented the change to the filibuster. “Totally not corrupted by his own business interests” Mancin is one I remember for sure was against it. There definitely is a contingent of Democrats that “don’t want to catch the car” but I think they’re the minority. With our stupidly thin margins that minority controls the agenda unfortunately :(
You don’t need to get past the filibuster to get rid of the filibuster.
No, but you do need enough votes that the people who like the status quo can be overriden. The last time that was the case was the brief period between 2008 and 2010 where there were 59 (and a 3-week window where they had 60) democrats in the Senate, and during that period McConnell’s “block everything and don’t give Obama any wins at all” strategy wasn’t fully apparent yet, so there was no appetite to get rid of the filibuster because it hadn’t yet been so widely abused. Then the 2010 midterm came in and democrats went from holding 59 seats to 51, and we’ve been stuck with Manchin (and later Sinema) having effective veto power on the Democrat agenda ever since.
… that’s the Republican playbook. Try again.
Which is why I’m a bit angry about it.
Are we really in a world where the march of 40 years of fervent evangelical christian nationalism is just “Trump and his goons”?
Trump could both die and go to jail today and that ideological shift is going nowhere but onward.
He’s gonna die sooner than later. While I don’t disagree that the evangelical fascist movement will continue, they sure have latched onto Trump hard. Who’s your bet for his eventual replacement? Has to be someone with a big media reach with a history of pandering hard to that audience. No need to be qualified for the position. Alex Jones, maybe? Or is he old news/dead meat at this point?
There’s plenty of Republicans happy to mimic Trump given the chance. Closest right now is probably Ted Cruz, if Republicans weren’t mostly misogynists I’d also say Margarine Taylor Greene.
Closest right now is probably Ted Cruz
He tried, didn’t go so well for him.
True, but if I were to bet on someone trying to fill the Trump void I’d bet on Cruz or Desantis. Someone that dumb and slimey wouldn’t pass on the chance.
Well right now Trump doesn’t even have a VP pick. Ostensibly: whomever he picks for that.
But just as the movement quickly coalesced around Trump, they’ll easily pivot to someone like Nicki Haley who will easily recouperate any Republicans Trump lost by being Trump, [edit:the type of voter] who the Democrats have been trying to court for about the same 40 years christian fascism has been on the rise.
Most of your grievances are things the POTUS has no unilateral authority over.
Not sure about his direct authority on drug classifications to enable OTC birth control. Also seems weird to focus on since this has been a hotly debated item for decades.
He has zero authority over abortion rights. The SCOTUS made this massive mess, and were enabled by Trumps appointees. This is trumps mess, and checks and balances explicitly prevents the POTUS from dictating this.
Trump prosecution is out of his hands. It’s Garland’s job. I’m not sure how much influence the POTUS can have here, but more to the point, the POTUS should be staying out of it, particularly since the plaintiff is his political rival. I don’t know what his authority is here in the technical sense, but it is appropriate to not have direct influence over the investigation.
Seems like there’s a lot of resentment towards Biden because of a general lack of understanding of the power structure of our government.
But what is he doing, then? He could be taking a firm line against the genocide in Palestine, but instead he is giving public and material support to the perpetrators. He could be rallying the electorate by using the “bully pulpit” to pressure congress with popular policies the public wants. He doesn’t do that kind of thing, because they are antithetical to his neoliberal politics. He (and those around him) would rather lose to the right than concede anything to the working class.
Most people understand that the potus is largely a figurehead, but Biden isn’t even doing that right. Don’t keep blaming the electorate when the problem is with the shitty fucking leadership.
That’s common, there’s too many people who think the President can control gas prices or fix things by waving a magic wand…
It’s a fiction the Right pushes so that Republican get the thanks for when things go right and Democrats get the blame when things go wrong.
Biden may be better than Trump, but the system is fucked to make those the only two options. If he wins, after the election I’m going to actively criticize everything about the Democratic party I can so that we have a chance to get a progressive candidate in 2028. For now I’m giving him a pass so we don’t take another step towards fascism. Republicans are going to use absolutely everything they can to squeeze their orange dictator into office.
I mean I’m definitely more on the progressive side and voted for Biden last time and I’ve still never stopped being critical of him or any other Democrat I voted for. That’s how democracy thrives after all.
I don’t want and will not settle for becoming like a Republican where I never question or criticize the person I voted for, even if it’s Bernie.
after the election I’m going to actively criticize everything about the Democratic party I can so that we have a chance to get a progressive candidate in 2028.
That’s how it’s supposed to happen.
You won’t get the option if the other side wins.
Well we’ve had that option for over three years and for over three years Biden has told us to go fuck ourselves. If that’s how the system is supposed to work then the system isn’t worth defending for me. I’ll leave that to the people who actually benefit from it.
I’ll leave that to the people who actually benefit from it.
Was it better or worse when states couldn’t just outright ban abortion? Would you say women “benefited” from the previous policy?
Man, it sure would have been nice if the Democrats had actually eliminated the filibuster and legislated abortion rights after Roe v Wade, instead of just campaigning on the threat of a GOP majority overturning it somehow. Almost like they didn’t actually give a damn about trying to solve that one, and just wanted to look like they cared. They could have had this done and sorted in the first years of Clinton’s or Obama’s presidencies and chose not to. Let’s see how many decades they campaign on swearing that, this time, they’re totally going to do something to settle the matter, for real.
I wish it were that simple.
Do you actually believe Dems even had the majority they needed to make it a law even when in power? Dems are not a monolith.
During the first 2 years of Obama’s presidency they focused on the economic crisis and healthcare reform. The latter, if you recall, even got fucked up because of one guy costing us the public option.
But none of this changes the fact that on this subject, we had something better before now.
Republicans can get their people in Congress to fall in line, but somehow Democrats always come out with “Gee, that rascally Lieberman/Manchin/Sinema, guess there’s nothing we can do” and don’t put any effective pressure on these people or get rid of them with someone who don’t turn out to just be colorblind Republicans that will sabotage the platform.
Democrats have chances to take action to address these problems and keep tripping over themselves on the same stupid stuff, then try to shout down increasingly disaffected voters with “The other ones are worse than us, vote for us and we won’t drop the ball again!”
I remember that sentiment being shared when Manchin was doing some stupid ass thing or another. EVERY time anyone asked those people what EXACTLY they suggested anyone do to him to force him to change, they had no real answer.
I just assume all Republicans have some dirty shit in their past that their party can lean on them with.
Now’s your chance. What could Biden or anyone else do to force Manchin to do what he wants?
I’d invite you to zoom out a little bit.
You know who wasn’t affected by the abortion ban? Anybody with enough money to move or travel. While they’ve got you distracted with what they’re giving you permission to do you’re letting them take away your ability to simply walk away.
Far more people have been harmed by the suppression of wages than any specific policy you can think of and it crosses over race, gender and age. Procorporatism is at the root of what’s killing us and Democrats are right there with Republicans making it happen.
You know who wasn’t affected by the abortion ban? Anybody with enough money to move or travel.
“I’ve got the means and time to travel hundreds of miles if I need an abortion and I’m not that bothered that many don’t.”
Got it…
Whether or not the abortion ban affects me directly doesn’t change the fact: Everybody is affected by wage suppression.
This is a very fair approach. Stop Fascism now, then right after the vote is won, start pushing the party Left.
I will almost certainly be voting for Biden, but why on Earth do you think we can push the DNC to the left? “Stop fascism now, then right after the vote is won, start pushing the party Left” has been the calling action for progressives and leftists for decades and the US has gotten more right-wing with time.
Why is this time any different? Is it finally time to realize that you cannot vote the DNC to the left at the scale required to make actual change?
With FPTP voting you literally don’t have a choice. Push for voting reforms first
We can’t even ditch the electoral college that regularly thumbs its nose at the popular vote, how do you think we’ll get ranked choice to become the federal norm in 4 years?
Looking at the past 40ish years, no party has ever held the presidential office for two consecutive candidates (not terms, candidates), so we’re pretty much guaranteed a Republican president in 2028 even if Biden wins 2024. And even though Trump will be rotting in a prison (or grave) by then, the Republican candidate will be just as evil, if maybe more eloquent about it.
That’s not the question I asked, haha. Voting reform would be nice, of course, but that doesn’t mean it will happen. That’s pure idealism. Voting reform has been pushed for for decades, how do you plan on actually getting voting reform through? Waiting for candidates to magically appear in the DNC and not just third party, and vote for them?
If you don’t get voting reform through, you don’t have much leverage at all for much else.
I asked how you’re getting it through, are you just saying the answer is to wait for the DNC to get around to it? Because I really hope that isn’t what you’re saying.
How are you getting anything else through? If you can push them to make any changes at all, this one should have top priority
This is what happened in 2020.
The party refused to move left. I won’t be suckered into giving up my vote for a procorporate piece of shit again. If Biden wants my vote he’ll fucking work for it.
Then please go vote in primaries, midterms, and local elections. That’s how you get the party to move. People complain about their elected officials but only vote once every four years.
Yes we complain because there was no excuse to vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries. There were much better options.
The party has no interest in moving. Thus I have no interest in voting for their trash candidates.
Have you considered that leftists have simply done a poor job of working for moderates’ votes?
This is a two way street. Progressives don’t get moderate votes for granted either, and I say that as a progressive. Perhaps part of the reason why progressives have struggled is because the loud minority would rather talk shit on everyone else instead trying to convince them.
Have you considered that leftists have simply done a poor job of working for moderates’ votes?
Have you considered moderates and liberals have no interest in moving left and will continue to expect our votes while making no material compromises?
This is a two way street. Progressives don’t get moderate votes for granted either, and I say that as a progressive. Perhaps part of the reason why progressives have struggled is because the loud minority would rather talk shit on everyone else instead trying to convince them.
I’m fine with this if that’s what you want. Get Biden re-elected without us. If you fail take full responsibility.
Do you actually care about progressive causes, or do you just want to be right and win one over against the moderates and centrists, yell at them and feel good about yourself?
Lol are you worried we feel good about ourselves? Suicide rates are at record highs. Don’t you worry about us feeling good. We don’t.
That doesn’t change facts though. Moderates, centerists, liberals or whatever else they want to call themselves are the majority of the party. Millions of them voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries over the numerous better options. We are all in this position because of their decisions. They are responsible for what’s happening.
I agree that we need more than 3 choices, but I disagree with you on being more progressive. Biden has been the most progressive democrat that I could remember.
You can’t remember Bernie?
Ya, I voted for him. I mean, some of the things Biden is doing is straight out of Bernie’s playbook. Student loan forgiveness. Prescription drug caps.
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Dude. This USA Today blog post is from December 2023. It doesn’t even mention Israel.
A rabid racoon would make a better president than Cheeto Benito…
Easy choice
That’s true, but tbh I would do that for Biden too…
I don’t argue with people who deny Genocide because their worldview requires them to ignore reality.
For anyone wondering: I was curious as to what their exact motivation was, and I found them claiming that the Holdomor didn’t happen. .ml user don’t be a pro-genocide tankie challenge:
If you’re talking about me, after the Soviet Union fell and historians got access to the archives it became irrefutable that there was no intentional genocidal famine. That’s what holodomor is, intentional genocide through famine.
I never would say there was no famine or massive amount of death, but holodomor means a very specific thing that has been disproven.
Source: trust me, bro.
Since you asked: Davies & Wheatcroft: Years of Hunger.
If you want to learn more about Robert Conquest, the anticommunist granted access to the Soviet archives who changed his tune about the famine afterwards, he has several books published but be warned: he thinks communism and Naziism are “twins”.
His correspondence with Stephen Wheatcroft where he talks about the experience is published in years of hunger I think. My copy’s not at hand r/n.
Gotta stop lumping all the players in one side together. Biden is not doing anything by himself and neither is the fat orange. Gotta pull out the microscope to see who is who and where and why rather than hitting on a single name. The house and senate are the major string pulling yoyos in everything that comes out of washington
Biden is not doing anything by himself and neither is the fat orange.
That is a big part of the problem. If Biden’s camp was full of Green New Deal Dems and peaceniks and Justice Party economic reformers, I’d have a lot easier time supporting him.
Instead, he’s surrounded himself with corporate flacks, banksters, MIC ghouls, and evangelicals, hoping to peel off the moderate Republican wing of the conservative party one more time.
The house and senate are the major string pulling yoyos in everything that comes out of washington
I would say that the donors are at the end of the strings, while House and Senate simply dance to their tunes. And when you consider how much influence a guy like Sam Bankman Fried had with “blue state” senators like Gillibrand and senior white house advisers like Steve Ricchetti, I gotta say I’m not thrilled to see the direction this party went in his first four years.
Even before you get to the Palestinian Genocide or the continued US blockade of Cuban ports or the migrant prisons lining the US border or the rapid domestic increase in carbon emissions under a President who claimed to acknowledge climate change, it seems like liberals cannot bring themselves to see the naked mismanagement, graft, and cowardice of the current President.
Boeing airliners are literally falling out of the sky and Biden’s FAA is still dragging its heels, for fear of upsetting one of the nation’s most well-financed lobbying teams. No federal prosecution of the Trump Administration is scheduled to move forward before November.
By any standard, this Presidency has been a failure.
By any standard, this Presidency has been a failure.
https://www.edf.org/blog/2022/08/12/biggest-thing-congress-has-ever-done-address-climate-change
Making a little effort rather than absolutely no effort doesn’t make it a Good effort. Terrible analysis. Additionally the whole mst oil production in US history sort of really undermines everything.
The climate bill was so comprehensive that it forced Europe to pass a similar bill while grumbling. And preliminary analysis of the bill suggested it would remove 6.5 kg of emissions for every 1 kg it enabled. That’s a big deal.
The US’s forecast 2030 emissions of more than 5bn metric tonnes is significantly higher than the 1.9bn metric tonnes it was allocated by the analysts under a 1.5C-compatible fair share model.
This, combined with our largest trading partners - from China to Mexico/Canada to Saudi Arabia - all doing even worse, means a marginal decrease in emissions domestically will have no hope of meeting the 1.5C target for 2030. We are already cresting the 2C horizon this year and accelerating our rate of warming.
The infrastructure act has been far too little and far too late, even setting aside how much of it is being squandered to appease profit-hungry American industrialists, more concerned with competing against global imports than curbing the global warming rate.
I find myself having to repeat this over and over.
Consider the context of the OP.
Would Trump be better on this front?
I had a much better time with a Trump/Pelosi government than I’m having with a Biden/Johnson government. If nothing else, watching him get impeached again would be more entertaining than arguing over how much nerve gas to send to the Israelis.
I asked if Trump would be better on climate and you attempted a pivot but you’re not gonna bullshit me.
You’re not serious so I’m out.
I asked if Trump would be better on climate
If you want to go hard on the numbers, Trump’s pandemic was the best thing to happen to the climate since the early Obama Administration investment in green energy.
Joe Biden has seen nothing but emissions growth since he took office. The benefits of the Infrastructure Act remain speculative at best. But shutting down air travel for months and curtailing business activity nationally for the better part of two years? Possibly the greatest act of Degrowth committed in the United States since the Civil War.
You’re not serious so I’m out.
Democrats have all been on board with Crypto investments and AI expansion, both of which have been voracious consumers of domestic energy and water reserves. Republicans consistently tank the Tech sector while in office.
If you care about climate change, bankrupting Silicon Valley would be a great place to start.
By any standard, this Presidency has been a failure.
Yep so let’s help elect an actual fascist that says he’ll finish the job in Gaza, has never seen a corrupt dollar that he didn’t want deposited in his bank account, wants to shoot protestors, extrajudicially executed antifa in the Pacific Northwest with federal goons, wants to be a dictator “only on day one”, and has already attempted to overthrow the government because he didn’t like the way an election turned out.
Also, nevermind the fact that in a global pandemic the fucking guy wanted us to inject disinfectant, said the disease would go away like magic, had store shelves so empty we were wiping our asses with our hands, and had his administration steal crucial supplies from frontline workers to auction off around the country.
Also set aside that he will let Russia steamroll Ukraine and will probably try to get the US out of NATO.
And that he’s been indicted with something like 90 criminal counts and a dozen or more civil cases, some of which have already rendered judgements against him.
And nevermind the non-stop craziness of the general population when he was originally elected in 2016 who while flying his flag ran over protestors with their cars, screamed at people on airlines, went to pizza places with weaponry demanding answers.
Biden didn’t singlehandedly turn everything around from it being a country on active fire in four years, so let’s put Trump back in to finish the job both abroad and here at home.
We’ll be a nice smoldering pile of rubble by next election season.
– 💩🔥🇺🇸
Yep so let’s help elect an actual fascist
Again, I refer you to the Electoral College.
Thanks. Just needed to hear the same shit again from another liberal. I so love election season.
it really is exhausting, isn’t it?
It is, but blocking individuals on Lemmy sure is a nice function. Not sure if it is a Lemmy function or a function of Boost for Lemmy.
Also, I will say good on the lemmy.world moderator that removed the post where dude really went unhinged. I really shouldn’t have called him out for being on a particular instance but I’ve noticed trends. Lemmy.world is definitely not the worst
My God, this. I keep wondering what would happen if they stopped yelling at us and tried yelling at Biden to course correct instead. It’s hard at times not to think that they don’t actually want positive change, which I know isn’t true, it’s just that their actions sure seem that way
We care a whole lot about not having another Trump presidency and unfortunately many here don’t seem to have figured out how first past the post voting works yet.
We understand how it works perfectly fine, thanks. The Democrats just can’t seem to get that if you constantly run on nothing but “Hey, the other guy is worse,” while supporting unconscionable policies, failing to deliver on popular policies and being yet another in a long line of disappointments for significant parts of the population, eventually people will say “You know what? If you want to lose this bad, fine.”
The Democrats will never actually change and improve if they keep managing to squeak by with more of the same. Unless they genuinely fear losing an election and take action to address it, we’re going to be in the exact same position in another four years, complete with liberals screeching at everyone who doesn’t fall in line, “Don’t you understand, this is the end of democracy! The other guy will be so bad, and we promise not to suck this time, scout’s honor.”
complete with liberals screeching at everyone who doesn’t fall in line, “Don’t you understand, this is the end of democracy! The other guy will be so bad, and we promise not to suck this time, scout’s honor.”
During Clinton v Trump I was screeching about abortion rights. Oh well, right?
Sure would have been nice if Democrats did anything about the filibuster and passing legislation to codify abortion rights when they had majorities at the start of the Clinton and Obama presidencies, rather than just campaigning on the possibility of Republicans ramming through their anti-reproductive healthcare stances when they couldn’t, and wringing their hands about bipartisanship when they did have chances, wouldn’t it? Same sort of posturing and preening that we get on so many topics this election cycle that, even if Democrats get an overwhelming mandate in, they will proceed to do absolutely nothing to actually implement a permanent solution to so in 2028 they can cry wolf again. Remind me how the story of the little boy crying wolf ended, could you?
Sorry, what about the fact that real people lost their ability to get abortions is crying wolf? There was an actual fucking wolf just like I was crying.
The fuck? What do you think that story is teaching?
Yes, it would be nice if they had the majority required to enshrine abortion rights in law. But that wasn’t reality.
What was reality is enough Republicans in power believe it should be taken away.
So, just like this whole damn OP is about - while Dems aren’t what we actually want, they’re a whole lot fucking better than the alternative.
Well, there’s the whole “Republicans are going to overturn Roe v Wade, vote for us so we’ll protect your rights” bit they’ve been coasting on for 30 years that they did fuck all about the entire time. That’s the crying wolf. They had chances to do so, and chose not to.
That’s… Not what crying wolf is. That would be warning people that electing Trump would affect abortion rights and get them more SCOTUS seats and then that NOT happening. Except it’s exactly what happened. We cried wolf and there was a wolf…
I think you’re delusional if you think even Dems had the majority required to make that into law in the past 30 years.
Get wrecked. If you don’t want to hear opinions in a politics sublemmy, don’t visit a politics sublemmy. Also, regarding opinions: just like assholes, everyone has one, they think theirs is the best, but they all stink.
Stay classy Lemmy World user. 👍
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Lmao
get wrecked
Ok bro
It’s a goddamn shame in what’s supposed to be a representative democracy that there are so many calls for those who supposedly should be the ones represented to change their views to conform with those who represent them and not the other way around.
But it’s power dynamics, innit? The Biden administration and their wealthy kind won’t be that harmed by a Trump administration, so they don’t have a lot of motivation to actually change anything. It’s those who stand to be horrifically harmed by Biden’s opponent who must swallow their morality and vote for monsters lest more harm come to them later on.
There are a lot of reasons things are the way they are - the fucked up way we elect a president, the fucked up way we count the votes, the fucked up way we apportion representatives - but the bottom line is that our government is broken and we’re not going to get actual representation out of it.
So unless progressives are going to move the red states en masse to actually change things, we need to get used to being an unrepresented minority, ruled by a different minority that has more land.
It’s a goddamn shame in what’s supposed to be a representative democracy that there are so many calls for those who supposedly should be the ones represented to change their views to conform with those who represent them and not the other way around.
Indeed there is. And I agree, we need changes to this system. But there are smart ways to do it, and there are dumb ways to do it. Allowing an authoratarian jerk in who will run roughshod over our rights and maybe even take away our vote entirely, causing untold pain to people you claim to support, is the dumbest and cruellest way of all. If you’re cool with that, you do you, but understand, I’m not going to be quiet about the choice you just made. It’s how we got Bush-43, and how we got Trump the first time around.
It’s those who stand to be horrifically harmed by Biden’s opponent who must swallow their morality and vote for monsters lest more harm come to them later on.
Biden isn’t a monster. Netanyahu is the monster slaughtering people in Gaza, and I’ve already written a whole missive on why Biden aids Israel while Netanyahu does genocide, so I won’t repeat it here. Biden IS squishy, and believe me, if I could get a more progressive candidate, I would take him or her in a heartbeat, but we’re not there yet. Not in a country where only 26% of the population willingly identifies themselves as Liberal and 74% says “no, not that.” I’m not saying we’ll never get there, but it takes hard work and dedication, like what Team Pepe has done to convert Team Red into itself. Surely, you folks on Team Green aren’t gonna let Team Pepe beat you at the ‘convert major party to our mirror’ game, are you? They have a rule over on Team Pepe: “Vote the Conservative in the Primary and the Republican in the General.” That rule works because they have leverage over even squishy Republicans that they don’t over Democrats. It works the same way over here. Biden is being pulled Left by angry voters, articulating that Netanyahu is risking support by attacking innocents unjustly. Pro-Tip: Trump’s voters want ALL the Muslims subjugated or slain, so he’ll face no such pressure. In fact, he’ll double down on supplying Israel because he knows that pisses you off and his main goal is to own the libs. So even by your ‘genocide’ argument, the only vote you have is Biden, to keep Trump out of office. Keep that in mind.
Edit: Brain Fart. Voting Biden won’t put Trump in office, thank god.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about my opinions and intended actions that just can’t be gleamed from a post kvetching about the sorry state the US finds itself in.
Maybe think about your own knee-jerk responses before you make up ones for others.
I’m just replying to your words, dude, and pointing out to anyone who may be swayed by your argument that your argument is flat out wrong and cruel to everyone who will suffer for a Trump victory in 2024. But I can see why you might not want to talk about that.
To everyone else: Remember that Trump’s campaign has admitted to leveraging dissatisfaction on the left to push them to sit out the election. They’re counting on this so they can steal close states like they did in 2016 with Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Mr. Albatross, there are two kinds of people that push the meme that you just can’t POSSIBLY vote for the genocidal monster of Joe Biden. One is the useful idiot that’s bought the bullshit being peddled by Russia and the Republicans. The other is the sorry sack of shit asshole that is actually pushing the bullshit made up by Russia and the Republicans.
Which are you?
Not once did I say anything about who people should vote for. The only sentence I used that talked about voting was saying people will vote for Biden.
You’re making up opinions so you can argue against them. Isn’t there a phrase for that?
Well, to be fair, I actually didn’t say you were saying not to vote for Biden until my very last comment. My first comment to you attacked the foundation of your argument, that you must vote for a monster to avoid harm coming to somebody else. Biden isn’t a monster. And I explained why he isn’t. And I explained that even with your ‘concern’ over what Biden has or hasn’t done RE: Israel, there is still only one choice for President, and that’s Biden.
But if we’re going to start accusing each other of dishonest debate tactics…what might it be called when somebody has concerns about how things are going, who thinks that both sides are equally bad, and who reacts to any criticism with semi-polite attacks on the ‘tone’ of the argument in order to try to make a person with an argument they don’t like look bad. So if we’re going to play this game, you might want to be careful with the stones in your glass house, buddy. ;)
Why not answer my point that Biden isn’t a monster, eh?
Biden is better than Trump because he (occasionally) listens to what the voters want. Trump tells his followers what they should support, not the other way around.
This also means that people trying to tell Biden to change course sound like Trump supporters to people that believe politicians never listen.
