source: @n7gifmdn@lemmy.ca
Let’s be fair though. Adobe changes the Acrobat interface every two weeks for no reason. PDF has always been an absolute shitshow, super slow, walled garden format. After like 30 years it’s still a 30 step process to add a note box with an arrow that looks half decent
> be me
> zoomer
> use linux
> i use linux
> i don’t know how to use windows, or macos
> i dont know how to use the most popular operating systems
> wait
> i am the joke nowIt only relatively recently occurred to me that the vast majority of people use the Internet either solely or mostly with a mobile phone. It blew my mind since I grew up with PCs and modems and the Internet is so much better on a large screen that’s not half full of ads.
OK so I have a pet theory about this. I grew up in a period when computing involved friction and lack of ready resources to ease that friction. Solving problems involved actual research, in the research process more and more details of how computers operate were exposed to me. I had the time and focus to learn and the motivation to stick at it when it was difficult. I then did something horrible to almost everyone who asked me for help, I removed that friction.
With the noblest of intentions I prevented everyone around me from experiencing that friction, I made it easy. Consequently I caused those people around me to miss out on those basics I struggled with. I uncovered the arcane lore of endianess so everyone around me who wasn’t already an adept would be spared. I plumbed the mysteries of the parallel port so that others could use a printer with only mild mystical invocations. I immersed myself in SCSI termination so that my friends and family might partake of IDE (retroactively named PATA) in peace.
I came from an era of computing where these things mattered (at least to some degree) and they moulded me and shaped how I use a computer to this day. My brothers will always be dependent on myself and my ilk to act as guides and so much of what I know is functionally useless today so a neophyte could not follow the twisted path I did.
I was blessed as well to come of age in a time when a computer was a comprehensible assemblage of parts, when I could identify at an IC level the components of it. I feel like that is what is missing in the modern incarnation of technology. I also worry this is where we stagnate, the field is too large for anyone to compass it entirely and we splinter in to specialisations.
However this is also a sign that technology has come of age. I am certain, absolutely positive, that if I was to pick an arbitary topic, say music, I would seem as illiterate and helpless as the Zoomers we are bemoaning as mere consumers of Tech. I can enjoy a piece of music, I can even take a rough stab at the rusiments of how it is made. Ask me to explain the nomenclature of a time signature on sheet music and I will look the dunce before I finish the first sentence.
So maybe we should give them a break and realise that for a lot of them, It… Just… Isn’t… Important…
They will learn this stuff if and when they need to. Otherwise “magic box does things when I perform this ritual” is enough for them to function in their world, the same as “Car starts when I turn this key” is enough for me to function in mine.
Holy crap, I wrote this on my phone, what is wrong with me?
Computers have been dumbed down and simplified for the masses. When I was a kid a computer did not cooperate until you raised your voice.
I do industrial programming. Everything is so far behind that yelling at the “computers” does nothing. Physical violence is just about the only thing they respect.
Percussive maintenance is surprisingly helpful a lot of the time.
Until your trackpad is acting up a bit and you become so frustrated you smack it and now it hardly ever works.
Same with flinging a laptop across the room, which ultimately became my excuse to replace a 12yo Sony laptop.
As long as you don’t let too much magic smoke escape.
If the magic smoke comes out, that’s entirely the electrician/electrical designer’s fault. Their circuits shouldn’t have let me do that.
Hey now, the NEC provides ample protection against user stupidity, and I do my damndest to take it a step further. If a user is able to do something so catastrophically stupid despite me better engineering efforts, perhaps they should read up on darwinism.
Signed, an electrician.
This often devolves into Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly.
A blowie works a lot more often.
More flies with honey they say… but i still cant get this usb right the first try.
It broke my previous laptop’s hard drive because it wasn’t an ssd.
therapeutic at least
That’s where the term punch card comes from
FORTRAN? More like, these hands. Put 'em up, numb nuts.
I would love to have more effective means to threaten inanimate objects.
Tbh, that sounds super interesting.
Hello, COMPUTER!!!
SLAMS DESK HELLO!
FathER!
FaaaThERR!
Use the mouse, duh.
Yeah, newer generations have been raised on tech that “just worked” consistently. They never had to do any deep troubleshooting, because they never encountered any major issues. They grew up in a world where the hard problems were already figured out, so they were insulated from a lot of the issues that allowed millennials to learn.
They never got a BSOD from a faulty USB driver. They never had to reinstall an OS after using Limewire to download “Linkin_Park-Numb.mp3.exe” on the family computer. Or hell, even if they did get tricked by a malicious download, the computer’s anti-virus automatically killed it before they were even able to open it. They never had to manually install OS updates. They never had to figure out how to get their sound card working with a new game. They never had to manually configure their network settings.
All of these things were chances for millennials to learn. But since the younger generations never encountered any issues, they never had to figure their own shit out.
It’s not so much that the tech just worked. Often it doesn’t work. The difference is that when it doesn’t work it’s not user-serviceable. Up until maybe 2010 or so, when things broke there was often something a user could do to fix them. But, especially with the introduction of locked-down mobile phone OSes, that’s not true anymore. Now it’s just “wait for an update”.
Or reinstall the OS on the family computer because one of your dumbass siblings downloaded a sUpeR cOoL song from one of their friends on MSN Messenger.
And that is why I’ll only allow my kids to use Linux!
It was always a struggle to get the damn thing to do what you wanted it to. It turned out to be a good thing long term.
Even as a teenager (didn’t have a computer before that) I had infinite patience with computers, you can fix/change/make anything with enough time, nothing will be better if you get mad and ignore reading and making sure you understand what’s happening. Seeing how young people handle tech now is fucking depressing, they just click past everything without reading, get mad and rage quit after 30 seconds of something not working and think anything that’s more than two clicks/taps is too complicated.
You talking about young people or old people?
Young, most old people I know either don’t know anything and are fine with that, they get help for even the simplest things, or they can handle it themselves without problems.
we really need frutiger aero back man
And when that wasn’t enough, the fists came out.
I’m sure you meant “beat it into submission”.
Not true
Millennials think it’s them , because they learned how. Gen X knows, because they wrote it.
The number of people in this thread stumped by the “rotate a PDF” comment, even what it means at all, while a smartphone has been 95-100% of their “computer” usage in their lives.
We grew up in an analog childhood, but digital adulthood.
We’ve been at the cusp of all the changes, we probably had to boot into Ms DOS and navigate to the A:// drive to play whatever was on the floppy disk with a whopping 1.44mb.
Now you download almost instantly to your phone/tablet. The internet as we knew it is mostly dead, everywhere is a walled garden of shit.
As a boomer, reading this thread/discussion has been so amusing in many ways while enjoying my cuppa tea this morning. A classic “the younger generations are stupid.”
The older generations looking down the ones that follow. And the following generations looking down on those that precede them. And no one understanding ain’t none of us are all that bright.
Ever has it been, and so ever shall it be.
this is less a problem of ‘people are stupid’ and more ‘educational institutions have been dismantled over the last several decades and large numbers of people are pushed through school despite being functionally illiterate, if they graduate at all’
Yea surprise some people are good at using computers some are bad, has nothing to do with whatever generation someone is apart of, generation labels are so dumb. Literally every “milleinal” I’ve known comes to me for their computer problems.
You can rotate a PDF in your mind. It’s free entertainment and nobody can stop you
How did we fail so hard? Where did we go wrong?
I can:
- Accomplish damn near anything from a command line
- Write machine code
- Remember a fairly broad swath of special character altcodes without looking them up
- Disassemble damn near any computer or other machine, and stand a good chance of putting it back together
But also:
- Use modern programming languages, including object oriented paradigms
- Actually read what is on my screen and comprehend it, including error messages
- Understand and operate any arbitrary interface without having to have it explained to me by rote
Behold my mixture of skills, and tremble.
Can you summarize this in a vertical video? I stopped reading after the third word, I’m here for memes, not to read a damned book!
This is spot on!
EDIT: This was spot on. TL;DR below.
I stopped reading after the third word, I’m here for memes, not to read a damned book!
TL;DR?
frfr no cap
On god
this. 👆👆
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I found the second part of the comment super funny.
TL;DR: User has programming and sysadmin skils.
I feel like if someone doesn’t do a TikTok remix of this… did it even happen?
… and have a dance video playing with music and flashing lights with the text over it … but not too much text because I can’t read that well
I find family guy clips with a slime squishing video underneath to be better for readability
Are you a three eyed chameleon?
“I can: Accomplish” kind of sums it up though
Write machine code? For what kind of processor?
That is one ability that doesn’t really belong. That’s much more of a Boomer thing. Not all boomers, obviously, but the ones who were computer experts were the ones who had to learn machine code. By the time even Gen X came along, assembler and C were already much more common.
They’re a witch speaking in tongues! Burn them!
You just made me realize the Zoomers are actually much closer to making Warhammer 40k a reality. IT engineers are like Tech Priests to these Zoomers.
I’ve been called a wizard a lot in my career because I can google an error message.
I don’t know much of Warhammer lore, so I had to look up tech priests:
"No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of true discernment and comprehension. For instance, even the theoretically simple process of activating a vehicle’s engine is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. "
Its clear to me the author of this block of text was having trouble starting his vehicle’s engine, and was pissed off when he/she was asked to put in a ticket before help would be rendered to the him/her.
he/she
What’s this nonsense? Why don’t you just say “they” like a normal person?
If you’ve never read it Vernon Vinge a fire upon the deep had a type of programmers in the future known as programmer archaeologists. The tldr is nobody wrote new code just dug up old code and bolted it together. I used to think that was silly, after llms lately and dealing with interns I no longer think of it as fiction.
01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01001111 01101101 01101110 01101001 01110011 01101001 01100001 01101000 00100000 01100100 01100101 01110011 01101001 01110010 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 01100001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
1001001…SOS…1001001…In distress
Ahem… Preferiero El Señor Arch-Magos.
Alabadados sea El Omnissiah, tampoco, naturalamente.
“Do not cite the Deep Magic to me, Witch! I was there when it was written”
Okay but can you rotate a pdf?
Depends, my browser has mostly taken over as my pdf viewer and I think it lacks the functionality but if I were to install a cracked copy of Acrobat Pro or PhantomPDF then that’s like a 2 click operation.
I can
- reinstall VLC
oh wait that was all the dependencies VLC needed, I deleted them??, oh no, oh crap. Why isn’t my password working, help???
(real reason why my first Ubuntu distro got nuked)
I once wanted to move all the files in the folder was I in to another folder and I did something like
mv /* ../. What is important here is that I did/*and not./*. Fortunately it was only a raspberry pi so it went fast to flash the SD card.Also, how did you go about reinstalling VLC if you deleted all dependencies?
that I did
/*and not./*that’s so funny but so sad 😭😭
how did you go about reinstalling VLC if you deleted all dependencies
I just distrohopped to kubuntu instead lol
I meant, how did you delete all files??
I’d argue at a certain depth in an OS its actually harder to do things with a GUI than a command line
The day I started learning Regex was the day I felt like I was really learning computers. I went from 2 hour tasks to 15 minutes.
I doubt you’d even be able to reasonably explain what they are let alone how they work to the average person outside the Millennial generation.
I fear AI data processing will replace much of the Regex skill set. Why learn Regex when the computer just does it for you… 🙄
Silly millennial, even Boomers were using regexen in the 70s, and they were commonplace by the time GenX nerds started playing with them in the 80s and 90s. Your elders also know that regexen are fun but extremely dangerous, and should only be used in cases where they won’t make things much worse.
I agree that regex is an important thing to learn. Not sure any old LLM would do a very good job, and I hope that no tool replaces people actually learning how to write regex.
I’m not sure what you mean about the average person outside the millennial generation not understanding them, though. Maybe I’m mistaken, but I don’t think the ‘average’ person in any generation knows what regex is. Unless there is some reason the average millennial was actually exposed to them and forced to understand them?
As for being doubtful that anyone could understand them aside from a millennial, I assume you’re being hyperbolic? Sort of sounds like “Kids these days can never learn what I learned!” (I’m teasing).
Anyway I’m in agreement with you. This thread did remind me of a pretty neat project that, while still requiring domain knowledge, could save some time and be a good learning tool without being as fallible of a crutch as an LLM.
Have not tried it, and am not an experienced developer, so I am curious to your thoughts/criticisms: https://github.com/pemistahl/grex
That’s a good idea actually. I hate writing regex, so I asked Gemini to do it just now. Once I explained it in the format it wanted: what the source would be, what I wanted filtered and the language I planned to use it with it spat out a perfect expression without me needing to even use my brain. Technology is wonderful.
I’m sure LLMs can get it right, but if I was going to use a tool for something like that, I’d want one that was more deterministic like the linked tool claims to be.
Yeah, I am exaggerating a bit, but I’ve not met anyone under the age of 25 that’s even remotely interested in putting in the effort to learn (anecdotal, I’m aware). Many have expressed wanting to learn, but then they never follow up when I try and pursue teaching anything.
And I’m not necessarily saying that the average person already understands them, but someone from our generation will probably pick them up far more quickly then your average Gen Z/Gen A.
Maybe what you’re claiming is true, I don’t know whether is ‘probable’.
I poked fun at this before, but I don’t think it came across. If I’m not mistaken, millennials were the subject of a lot of boomer complaints about “kids these days”, being called lazy or entitled etc…
Maybe zoomers are dumber, maybe they’re full of microplastics and entitlement. Or maybe this thread is an example of the “chastise the next generation” history repeating. One generation is lumped together and shat on by older generations, some of which then make similar claims about the next generation(s) all backed up with nothing but anecdotes and confirmation bias.
I’m not trying to take dig at you, but I do want to highlight the similarities between claims like these and when a boomer might’ve said “I know a millennial who spends more on coffee than I would, so millennials are bad with their money. Millennials, who are bad with their money, cant afford houses. Yet they act entitled to homeownership, and so, they are lazy.” It’s a claim that assumes something about the integrity and intelligence of a swath of people and ignores the systemic issues that made homeownership hard for many millennials compared to past generations.
Again, maybe you are right, I do not know. I don’t think, though, that boomer rhetoric that shat on millennials as a whole was particularly accurate or productive.
I certainly don’t blame them for these pitfalls I don’t think it’s laziness. It’s 100% a lack of education. Teachers have all but given up trying to get kids to pay attention in class. It’s become a snowball effect.
When I was in school, most of my classmates took it seriously and took much of the education at face value. And almost all of my classmates are people that could handle the full Office suite.
Now it seems every kid thinks they already know computers because they started with an iPad at the age of 4, but what they don’t realize is phones and tablets are the equivalent to toys.
You don’t ever actually learn how to use a phone. Just individual apps. People don’t even really browse the internet blindly anymore.
I think it’s probably the difference that a lot of boomers probably saw with cars in the 2000s-2010s. It used to be everyone had a rough idea of how a car worked and most people could learn in a year or two how to do basic stuff.
Now it’s all a closed magic box requiring a full technical degree. Phones fell the same. Its a magic box that they never had the opportunity to wonder how it worked.
Bobby no one’s paying you for this shit, go show Billy how to sum numbers in Excel.
Why would you write machine code outside of uni! Assembly exists for a reason?
Assembly is just machine code in a dress.
I’d argue that it’s not as useful to write machine code as it is to read it.
Understand and operate any arbitrary interface without having to have it explained to me by rote
Omg, this all the way. I’m in a class for learning AWS stuff and its crazy the amount of people who suddenly can’t do anything when one button is on a different screen than the instructions told them it was. Like come on, use some basic thinking skills.
Another infuriating situation was having to do a class on Microsoft Office. It was infuriating because it was incredibly basic stuff. I’ve never used Outlook before, but I completed each task they asked of me in like 5 seconds because I have a basic understanding of how software works.
… modern … Object oriented
wat?
Bro that shits like 30 years old and most langs released after lets say 2010 have put that stuff in the backseat for backwards compatibility. Anyway I get your point
operate any arbitrary interface
Dont believe it. Behold the shittyness of modern UI
I bow down to thee. Please don’t smite me o’ holy one.
Remember a fairly broad swath of special character altcodes
I use the compose key. When you message with me, you are sure to receive proper dashes and real ellipsis.
Well, unless I happen to be using my phone or another computer at the time.
Hold on — why can’t you do proper ellipses and dashes on your phone? I don’t understand…
This message brought to you by Android.
Well there is no em dash or en dash key on the mobile keyboard. And there isn’t a … key either.
I typed my comment above on my mobile keyboard. I’m just using the standard Google keyboard on my Pixel, nothing fancy. Em and en dash are available by holding on the hyphen, and the ellipsis is available by holding on the period (annoyingly, only when on the numbers/symbols page).
standard Google keyboard on my Pixel, nothing fancy
The issue is that I am using something fancy.
Yeah but can you rotate a pdf?
To any angle you want.
