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Saw a kid at the zoo banging all up on the glass at a turtle yelling “WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP” and his dad aas doing fuck all. Tried to say “hey buddy maybe we chill” but I don’t really think it got through and he only stopped because of coincidental timing(a parent that shitty would probably get mad at me and I was there to have a good day).
(Note: I did have a good day, the zoo is awesome. We pet rays).
Yoooo, I have two kids who I have never laid a hand on, and they behave extremely well compared to their peers (not perfect by any means, but I am very happy with them). My father beat the shit out of me when I was a kid, and what did that get him? Me hating him until now. I still help him and take care of him, but to be 100% honest, I don’t have love for the man. You don’t need to beat a little being who has no defense to make them behave, this is just absurd and stupid.
I’m a parent of one child who is the opposite of feral and never gets hit.
And while yes obviously we should not teach our children that physical abuse is how we keep people in line, this conversation needs to go far beyond the level if disciplinary tactics. What’s the whole overall parenting strategy?
I submit that actually having a strategy leads to less abuse, and that those who are the quickest to abuse are also the ones who do not take the time to reflect on themselves, their parenting, life, etc. At least not in a way that could potentially make them feel bad or change their ways.
And I’m not even trying to position myself as a perfect parent above physical intervention. Especially when safety is involved. But you have to leave room for escalation. If everything is met with the same reaction of losing your shit, then no bad behaviors seem any worse than others.
I don’t know if modern people are truly any worse at parenting than past generations, or if it’s yet another example of humanity’s shittiness being exposed by our explosion in communications technology.
They aren’t. Crime is down. Underage drinking and drug use is down. Less underage pregnancy. More people are completing secondary. Anyone who says kids are worse hasn’t looked at the numbers.
Yeah that’s typically how it works. People default to complaining and seeing everything as getting worse all the time.
I wonder if the “feral child” phenomenon has actually increased though (I don’t think there would be stats) and if that has something to do with the lower crime rate.
Not that it’s good to let your child be a feral nuisance. But if a child has shitty parents maybe that’s better for their development than whatever abuse the parents would choose to control it.
juvenoia
A vsauce so good
How’s that relate to feral children though ? Which i take as “badly behaved in public” . It could just be shifting baseline syndrome which is what the meme sortof intimates o.e bad behavior today is accepted but back in the day it wasn’t.
Not suggesting onw way or the other if children are less well behaved pubicially but your refutation seems a staw clutch ?
Meh, teenagers are legal children. That’s the only hard evidence we have.
“Those pesky kids need a beating” is a meme several thousands years old
How about we just say no to the idea of beating kids
If your kid comes home from school saying another kid beat them up ofc you’d be horrified yet some parents are okay with hitting their own kids and it makes no sense
My mom had 4 kids. 3 of us were well behaved in public and she said “I would look at those parents with screaming kids in the store and think I am doing something right, my kids don’t do that. So God gave me Janet. I was so judgemental, then I got one who screamed in the store.”
Can we please leave TikTok face on TikTok? I come here specifically to escape the brain rot.
boy are you in the wrong place
I’m talking about a specific level of brain rot mind you, I can accept the lower level that is typical of Lemmy meme communities but not quite corporate social network levels.
brainrot has levels now?
Always had levels
I’m on level 69
nice
nice
A small example of the low-level brain rot accept in Lemmy meme communities
it has layers, like an onion
you know, not everybody likes onions…
If you’re a brainrot connoisseur like them you have to differentiate everything.
🤣 it’s amazing how you people actually think you are better.
deleted by creator
Than TikTok? Sure we are. It’s an incredibly low bar. Most everything is better than TikTok.
🤣👌👍
Whatever you need to tell yourself.
I’m genuinely curious about affected people - are you able to express yourself without the use of reaction gifs and emojis?
“you people”
It’ll never live up to the first, but I want a sequel so bad .
There is essentially universal agreement in the field of child psychology that “beating” your child is the wrong approach.
I’ve yet to meet a parent that completely ignores their child in a public venue. In many cultures children are considered to be a part of society / community and so they are given some autonomy to discover the world with their peers. Hyper individualistic Western society is really the odd one out here and Western cultures are the only ones where I’ve seen this take expressed openly. Conclude from that what you will.
A few weeks ago my wife and I were getting breakfast at a local bakery. Inside, a dad had decided that it did not matter that his small child was running around, screaming at the top of his lungs. The little gremlin started trying to steal pastries off other people’s tables and dad stiff didn’t do anything until the staff announced loudly that all unattended children would be reported to CPS.
That kid didn’t need a beating, but that dad sure did.
Agreed, that’s unacceptable.
Look, with parents you never know what they just went through. Maybe they didn’t get any sleep or whatever. A different approach would have been for someone to start playing with the kid
Kids keeping parents from sleeping —> no bakery trip or 1 parent goes/1 parent keeps the kids at home. That‘s the appropriate response to that.
Although I agree with the sentiment, I would NEVER expect anybody to entertain my kids. I would just pack them up and gone home. My kids are my burden to bear.
I would NEVER expect anybody to entertain my kids.
I wouldn’t either but I’m not in this persons shoes
If you’re a parent, you are the problem. It’s not strangers’ jobs to parent your kids. If you can’t keep them from bothering other people do not take them to places with other people. It’s not socially acceptable for me to kick your kid, so don’t put me in a position where that starts seeming like a good idea.
If you can’t keep them from bothering other people do not take them to places with other people.
Kids will always bother those around them. They cry, they can’t understand or follow social cues etc. But they’re people and imo they have the right to exist in public places.
In Berlin neighbors sue schools all the time for noise pollution, for being too noisy. Like wtf
That does happen in other more child friendly cultures. Its just not a priority in Western culture. Children are very much seen as an impediment to productivity rather than an investment in the future. Its a consequence of capitalistic and individualistic ideals, for better or for worse.
I personally resonate with the song Eat Your Young by Hozier. It’s an indictment on all modern culture but I feel Western culture especially. The overall message being that (in my interpretation) when we focus on productivity instead of sustainability we sell out future generations.
Very simple: Don’t have children, and the population will collapse until people have time to parent again.
That’s not how that works. Also people never had time to parent. They probably have more time now. Older generations were just sent out on the streets to play in the morning or after school and had to be back for dinner.
Both my parents and me are working, we still can’t get a net positive out in a month. My brother is basically neglected
That’s fucked. How many square meters of living space do you 4 have?
Serbia actually. Please nuke us, we have oil.
I have many times seen parents ignoring their child’s behaviour in public, pretty much every time I go shopping.
That’s incredible, there may be some regional variation at play here.
I think many use “beating” as a hyperbole, just like if I said my mom would kill me if I did that. I don’t mean she would literally kill me.
Before I go on, could you be more specific on what “western culture” and which “hyper individualistic western society” you are talking about?
Now I’ve traveled quite a bit all over the world. I’ve seen parents of all cultures just straight up ignoring their child’s awful behavior.
And maybe it’s just me seeing these specific tourists the most. The Chineese parents are the biggest offender that I’ve seen in my travels. Their children do whatever they want and they don’t say anything. Just an example from the top of my head, climbing on shelves in a grocery store while the parents just watched.
I mostly agree except for the initial phase of teaching a kid to listen and control themselves. The part of the brain that forces them to sit still and focus doesn’t really develop imo without some fear. I wouldn’t at all advocate for beating your child, but when they are young a little spank sometimes that isn’t that bad seems scary as hell to them. It’s very effective to get them to learn to listen, to stop running around, that sort of thing. After you get past that point you can talk to them, it’s much easier. Also you have to talk to them afterwards so they know you aren’t being mean, but need them to learn to control themselves and not let their emotions take over all the time. If you do it well, you won’t have to do it but a few times. Not intensity, but as little as possible, just so they know that they can’t get away with it. A kid has almost unlimited energy to fight and yell. It’s not good for you, and it’s not good for them. It’s not really normal for an animal to never have any fear. The brain isn’t supposed to work that way. Yet also it’s not good to abuse them obviously. Some people are kind of bad parents and they will use that as an excuse to avoid doing what they should for their kids, like cooking healthy food and stuff. When kids arent eating well or are trapped inside all day they also get restless. That is not the time to be spanking. The one time where spanking is appropriate is simply to make them realize that they can’t just ignore you and walk on you, and that they have to actually talk with you when you are serious. Talking is the part where they learn. They should just learn fear. This will make them depressive and lazy and resentful and psychotic.
This is an area with a ton of debate and I appreciate your insights. I was on the receiving end of corporal punishment growing up and have chosen not continue that cycle. That doesn’t mean that my child will grow up without consequences, which is I think what most posters are frustrated with here.
According to the World Health Organization:
Evidence shows corporal punishment harms children’s physical and mental health, increases behavioural problems over time, and has no positive outcomes.
All corporal punishment, however mild or light, carries an inbuilt risk of escalation. Studies suggest that parents who used corporal punishment are at heightened risk of perpetrating severe maltreatment
Corporal punishment is linked to a range of negative outcomes for children across countries and cultures, including physical and mental ill-health, impaired cognitive and socio-emotional development, poor educational outcomes, increased aggression and perpetration of violence.
There is also evidence that fear based parenting can lead to anxiety, depression, behavioral problems, and poor self-esteem and sows mistrust and emotional distance between parent and child. I can personally attest to experiencing quite a few of these in relation to corporal punishment.
Now it sounds like you are using fear judiciously and to each their own. But I am determined to find another way, while also making consequences as clear as possible. Age 1 to 3 is difficult for everyone since the child is mobile and exploratory but has very little reasoning capabilities.
I am similar, I grew up with a great deal of that and I barely ever use it for my kids. I actually have a fair bit of trauma and PTSD because my father was an alcoholic and very mean. I never use it anymore I did a little when they were toddlers to get them to do stuff like not pee in the bed, to not leave trash laying around, to not be disrespectful. I had a severe concussion when I was raising them in that phase and I couldn’t handle the yelling because it would trigger massive migraines. I understand most people who use it do ruin their kids with it, and most people who use it are really trashy parents who are arrogant and have bad morality, but really the point in trying to make is that it’s very healthy for a kid to learn how to deal with the emotion of fear and to experience it a bit. This is something the modern world doesn’t realize as much. It helps them to focus. It’s a very narrow window of course. Fear is a strong work and don’t want you to think that I mean your kid should be terrified of you, but they should learn to have respect to feel a bit of consequences to get past that basic part where their higher mind can take control. Their fear needs to be able to calm their mind. I think of it as two pillars that lean against each other creating an arch, your positive and negative emotions. That is a really complicated way of saying, the only thing spanking is good for, is to teach a kid to stop, think, and listen, anything beyond that is abuse imo. You really need to talk to them and explain, not just preach, but back and forth about why something is right or wrong. Tell them about your life and what you have to deal with. Ask them what they think. Ask them how they feel about it. Let them be honest, let them have autonomy where you can. Being safe and respectful is important but beyond that you don’t own your child and your child doesn’t need to be molded by you as a parent. They need to bloom into their own type of flower. That is what actually makes them a highly motivated person.
It works good for me because I completely support my kids autonomy. I want them to have their own style, their own desires, their own preferences, I want them to be themselves. I don’t police their sexuality or what video games or movies they can watch. What clothes they can buy. I do forbid them from some things of course. Hanging out with people who do drugs is one example. I will talk to them about these things in an adult fashion. I will challenge them and ask them questions about why they are doing something, and ask them to tell me how it makes people around them feel, how it makes them feel. It’s not that they should live their life to please other people, not at all, but to be aware of how their actions affect others. To be aware of other people’s pain and limitations. Talk is best, a respectful adult conversation as equals. A conversation as a friend.
You never want to use physical punishment anymore then you have to, because your child will come to see the world through the lens of a victim. They will never really develop an ability to take pride in themselves and stand up for themselves and to chase their own dreams. Survival becomes their only true friend when they learn to hide themselves from the world.
I’d like to thank you again for your insights. It sounds like you exercise a lot of self control and have thought about this meticulously which unfortunately many parents do not. I agree that theres value in children experiencing and understanding fear in a controlled environment.
Ultimately I do want them to experience and better understand fear though I certainly don’t want them to fear me. I’m still hoping I can impart those lessons without threatening their bodily autonomy since it is personally a hard line for me (just from personal experiences and the psychological issues it caused). But time will tell, mine have yet to enter the stage of chaos and irrationality known as toddlerhood haha.
Fair enough, you sound like a good one anyways. Best of luck
There is not a single ounce of anything scientific provable in what you are saying. You are making shit up to justify hitting your children. That’s really it.
I mostly agree except for the initial phase of teaching a kid to listen and control themselves.
When would that be? It is a learning process for children to control themselves. Some grown ups haven’t mastered it.
The part of the brain that forces them to sit still and focus doesn’t really develop imo without some fear.
This is the core piece of your little theory, right? I challenge you to give me any reputable source, be it from a psychological or pedagogical paper. Just one. To the best of my knowledge, not a single developmental theory backs this up.
I wouldn’t at all advocate for beating your child, but when they are young a little spank sometimes that isn’t that bad seems scary as hell to them.
In other words, you are advocating for beating children. You have no idea how “a little spank” feels for your child. If they are scared about it afterwards it’s a little bit hypocritical to assume that it was not “that bad”.
It’s very effective to get them to learn to listen, to stop running around, that sort of thing. After you get past that point you can talk to them, it’s much easier.
“My child was running around and wouldn’t listen, so i spanked it.” Are you sure there are no other avenues available to get your child to listen?
Also you have to talk to them afterwards so they know you aren’t being mean
You just beat a person that has no way of protectong themselves against somebody much stronger and that they rely on for savty and security. That is mean. Even if you managed to convonce yourself that it’s not. It realy is.
but need them to learn to control themselves and not let their emotions take over all the time.
THEY ARE CHILDREN! Children have to learn to controll emotions. It’s part of growing up. The way to support them is to help them undersuand their emotions and giving them tools to deal with them. Don’t expect it to work imedeatly, it’s a process. Spanking them will teach them to suppress and bottle their emotion, because the single person they rely on for safety is hitting them if they don’t. You are not teaching your children to deal with emotions in a healty manor.
Well I wrote a long response but I couldn’t post it. Maybe I can reply later when I’m not busy with work.
Yeah but then I see grown ass adults doing the same shit. And since they’re my age they more than likely got beat.
My 11-month old is an absolute saint when we’re out and about, then a horrifying tornado of destruction when he’s at home. I suspect a lot of it is just boredom, but its hard to tell because… 11-mo olds aren’t great at verbalizing their discontent.
As he gets older and he starts losing that starstruck look of wonderment at the mall or a new restaurant or wherever, I suspect he’ll be harder to control. But he’s also incredibly clever, athletic, and curious. I don’t want to discourage any of this just to make parenting a bit easier in the short term.
Can’t fucking imagine actually hitting him. I know what that did to me after the rare few times my mom did it. I still can’t bring myself to forgive her 30 years later. And there’s no way I want my son thinking of me that way.
They’re experiencing restraint collapse.
You’re doing a great job parenting! It’s one of the most difficult jobs in the world to do well. Restraint collapse is a great indicator that you’re doing well. It’s also hell because you take everything on. Thank you for parenting well.
I see a lot of objectionable behavior out in public. A lot of it is from children. But most of it is not. If I’m thinking through my 10 worst flight experiences, or subway experiences, or coffee shop experiences, none of them involve children. Children are mostly a mild annoyance (and I say this as someone who mostly doesn’t like other people’s kids), but mostly harmless.
So the reaction of singling out the children for immediate correction, through physical force and violence, seems to be selectively targeted, and makes me suspect it’s just people who just don’t like children. Unless these same people say that a person holding up the line, playing music too loud on the subway, getting too close in your personal space, throwing trash on the ground, catcalling women, using slurs in public, etc., all deserve to be beaten, too.
And for people in the thread who are saying stuff like “oh yeah you shouldn’t beat your kids, but you should keep those children out of public places,” it also calls to mind the way some people talk about the homeless or the disabled, like they’re ruining your good time by simply existing within your vicinity.
We’re all just trying to coexist. Being in public, in a place open and accessible to everyone else, is inherently going to involve compromise, where we’re not able to exclude others (the deal that comes with them not being able to exclude you). You can’t let other people aggravate you enough to, like, post a TikTok about it (which I also consider to be objectionable behavior).
The kind of attitude you are talking about here is btw called adultism, which is a selective bias against children.
Being a parent is hard af
Doesn’t help that people judge 2 year old parents when their child is crying. Not like they could hold a debate with someone who can not comprehend the concept of self control.
2 year olds should really not be parents.
No, but you can remove them from the venue if it doesn’t stop crying, unless you’re on a plane.
That just reinforces their behavior and they keep doing it. If they dont want to go to the grocery store or what ever, they cry, they go. They learn crying gets them what they want and they become spoiled brats. Tantrums and crying are growth opportunities some times, and not to mention, other times the parent needs to be there and they dont have other child care options.
Sorry to inconvenience you
How do you think they’re going to learn to behave in public if they’re just cooped up 24/7? People being annoying and noisy is just a part of existing as a human being. We shouldn’t stunt the growth of entire fucking generations just because they make you uncomfortable.
Removing from the venue changes the setting and makes it easier to talk to the child about what they were doing, and even more likely address whatever the child had going on. Removing them from the setting temporarily makes parenting easier and benefits everyone else.
Source: am parent and was a child at one point
How do you think they’re going to learn to behave in public if they’re just cooped up 24/7?
Thats not w what my comment said at all. Why are you arguing in bad faith?
My parents made tons of mistakes, but the word shh being acknowledged as existing wasn’t one of them.
People love to act like children are always so difficult they cannot be reasoned with, but shushing isn’t actually trauma. And it works very often. Guess what, everywhere I go people have horribly behaved dogs while mine is an angel in comparison. Why? Because I didn’t just let them do whatever whenever. I made small corrections consistently. And my dog seems quite happy. I’m sure you’ll get all mad that I’m “comparing children and animals” but honestly you can see the same kinds of boundary testing and reactions from both so I think it’s fair.
They learn how to behave because when they behave inappropriately, they are punished. No one here is opposed to a charming little kid wandering around and doing cute shit. They are opposed to kids throwing 45 minute long temper tantrums because the italian restaurant doesn’t have chicken nuggets. You can practice this feedback cycle both at home and in public (in public, of course, remove the kid from the situation where they are annoying everyone first).
My reading speed seriosly lags behind my decision making timeeeeeeeeeeeeees
People also don’t get how different children are and how much neuro diversity is out there. Comments below say to remove the child from the venue or keep them at home. It’s been years and I’ve hardly left the house for social enjoyment. My kid finally gets excited about going to the cinema, so we go,and he ends up having difficulty regulating himself there…I guess I better scoop him up and fuck off back to the cave we crawled out of.
Managing children is difficult, and if a child is dedicated to their course of action, then you can’t win. You can never win a battle of wills against a young child. A child has infinite energy, infinite time and a single minded focus. They’ve got nowhere else to be nothing better to do.
As one of those neurodivergent kids, my mom explicitly laid all the blame on me whenever she felt embarrassed in public. I was removed from activities countless times without any clear understanding of why - all I knew was I wasn’t allowed to do fun things. There was no accommodation for sensory issues, no space provided for me to self-regulate, no understanding that I was having a difficult time and needed support - just labels thrown at me for “being difficult”, as if by merely existing, I was a problem.
Every child deserves to participate in enriching activities regardless of their neurotype. By removing neurodiverse kids (and not returning after they calm down) or outright keeping them away from such events, they may internalize the idea that who they are is not acceptable. Parents, there are resources available today that didn’t exist in the 90s. There is no reason to raise your neurodiverse kid the way we used to be raised. If you don’t know what to do with your kid and you haven’t already done so, get help. Please.
100%.
We have a ND kid who has the standard AuDHD diagnosis, and we do our best to allow them to participate in activities, and they’re getting a lot better at self regulation since we’ve been able to get them into therapy/OT/various other things that I did t get a chance to have when I was that young.
It’s hard, but just stopping and explaining things to kids goes so far, even if they can’t internalize it in the moment, those lessons build up and give them the base they need to participate in a world that has no empathy for the ND.
Agree completely. That’s what people don’t see when they’re being judgemental and demand that a child “be sorted and quietened now”. I need time to help my kid self-regulate and adjust and be supported in the environment…but I need the community’s support in tolerating a “loud and disruptive” child for a moment.
I was always told that I’d be more charitable about this kind of thing once I had kids.
No idea where anyone got that idea. After becoming a parent I’m WAY more judgy about bad parenting.
This is the unfortunate truth. If someone has “easier” children they become even more judgemental of “difficult” children. They take it as a skill issue as if their expert parenting was all that mattered and thus other parents are failures.
If you had that “difficult” child with the set of social circumstances as that family, then you might have struggled too. Withhold that judgement. Most are trying their best. Sometimes you might even see me “doing nothing” about my out of control child…but that’s because I’m trying to regulate myself before I lose my shit; just need a moment.
I don’t judge difficult children, I judge crappy parenting. The kids are fine.
My kid finally gets excited about going to the cinema, so we go,and he ends up having difficulty regulating himself there…I guess I better scoop him up and fuck off back to the cave we crawled out of.
If they are doing something really disruptive like crying for extended periods of time just remove them from the setting for long enough to regulate themselves and go back in. Keeping them in a setting where they can’t regulate themselves for extended periods of time is counterproductive. I stepped out into the hall with my klddo to get away from the loud noise and bright screen so she could get herself under control a lot of times, and eventually she figured out how to regulate herself in those same situations.
Now if people are shitty because the kiddo is doing regular kid things or because they were disruptive for a short period of time then they can go eat a turd.
if a child is dedicated to their course of action, then you can’t win. You can never win a battle of wills against a young child.
smh
Depends on their age and how you define win.
I don’t even know who does it worse.
People who have absolutely zero experience with children judging
Or the other parents who had a child that gave them no issues from birth. ‘Just politely ask them’ and they will be good. It ‘worked for me’.
Do you think “politely asking” is how you raise children that give you no issues?
It’s not hard to lead by example and to have important discussions with your kids. Kids understand until you show them they have the option not to.
For real, clearly they never had to explain to a 4 year old why they could not run around with crayons stuffed in their nose.
I understand but also not my problem? If you are too tired to deal with your children maybe keep them at home. If you are going to bring a child to a public place you got to be prepare and willing to educate them. Your children are special bundles of joy for You, and you only. People are not ok in having to deal with an unhinged savage child because parenting is hard. People take the “it takes a village” wrong. Not everyone you see is on your village.
Speaking as a parent, you are correct.
Thank you. Just adding again I’m not agains kids. Just want parents to parent more sometimes.
Your children are special bundles of joy for You, and you only.
Those snotrags are in charge of funding our retirements excuse me!
They won’t, the go on your nerves now and they won’t fund your retirement.
What retirement?
I’ll be long dead before retirement as they keep raising retirement age far beyond what most people in my family have lived.
They’re mad because you’re right and they have to deal with screaming brats all day because they chose to and you didn’t.
exactly. They are mad because it’s NOT about the kids. Kids will be kids and thats why they have PARENTS. the Parents are the fucking lazy people that are “too tired” but keep having children becuase “oh my god it takes a vilage” Fuck off go raise your child
Then, politely, fuck off.
Children are a part of the society that you live in, whether you liked it or not. I don’t know who hurt you, but you were also a child once. You pooped your diapers, you cried, you misbehaved. How your parents have treated you when you did these things has a very direct effect on how you behave and think right now. My guess is they were shitty, it would explain your irrational anger and hatred towards kids.
Misbehaving in public is a necessary step to learning how to behave in the first place. It’s a learning by doing thing. You won’t get your child prepared to act kind, nice, and considerate with other people if you don’t let them meet other people. You cannot teach your kid how to behave on the outside at home. How is that not obvious to you? It is inconvenient, it is annoying, it is hard, and it has to be done so that we don’t have underdeveloped, immature, dysregulated asshole adults a generation’s time from now.
Parents are always obligated to watch for their kids and show them how to behave. This doesn’t mean they can, or should, control their every move, word, reaction, emotion, or behavior. If a 3 year old cries and it is uncomfortable for you, that’s your problem. It is not the child’s or the parent’s duty to shut them up with a gag ball ffs. It is their duty to help them resolve and guide them through their overwhelming emotions. So that they will grow up to be emotionally healthy adults.
Children have an innate need to play. They learn via playing. They learn via trying things out and touching them. They learn to walk and run by walking and running - and falling and failing. They also learn about the world from the world’s reaction. Being met with disdain for solely existing and breathing won’t help them to grow up to be adults with a lot of self worth.
You don’t get to decide who is part of the society and village you live in. You don’t get to cherry pick your neighbors.
You don’t want kids in your village go live in a cave.
That’s a lot of anger you’re spitting just because someone doesn’t want to hear screaming children. My siblings and I were never allowed to scream in public.
That person really feels entitled to inflict their children’s bad behavior on everyone else around them.
We should sterilize people who’s children tantrum in public, and have social services take their children.
You were not allowed to but I can guarantee that you were still screaming in public.
Hmm my mother says I was quiet and I observed normal amounts of fussiness from my other siblings that was far less than screaming at the top of their lungs. If they had done that, they would have been shushed, comforted, talked to, or taken somewhere else because my parents took responsibility for their own decisions and for what their children did. Instead of pretending it’s hopeless and that whatever impulse we had was fine.
My son was, too. I didn’t raise him strictly (I was a hippie mother, raised in the 70s), but gradually acclimatised him through smaller interactions (small groups to larger, to regional to public), because I had that luxury. Lots of parents over the past 10 years were deprived of that, and it’s been exceptionally difficult to get a child acclimatised to an increasingly hostile world.
People have been far less patient in public – which is entirely understandable, given the circumstances – so many parents and other caregivers (teachers, counsellors, etc) who are trying their best can’t help but be defensive when they hear negativity towards children online, because I’d wager everyone encounters people who are excessively put out by the slightest transgression of a child in their proximity.
It may not be the way the majority react, nor how you react, but it happens regularly enough to become exhausting.
So, in these conversations, I feel like many people are responding to children who are clearly being publicly misparented, and then there are many parents who are thinking of the times someone overreacted to a social faux pas by their child.
I feel like people are misdirecting their anger here.
I think you’re dead on actually. The person I responded to is so defensive because they’ve probably been talked to about it before. No matter how awful it’s been I never have done that. And if they realized that they as a parent are used to the annoyance, but others aren’t, it actually takes restraint not to at least glare. So when that commenter got so pissed, I assume their child is poorly behaved enough for the parent to get told semi-often
Every child screams in public at some point? That’s normal development. You and I did too. They may just be excited.
Of course if a child is screaming constantly then the parents need to intervene. But expecting children to be seen but not heard is unrealistic by any standard.
Not really. There are kids louder than others. And while there may be some internal aspects to that a lot of that have to do with education. Specially as they grow and education starts becoming more a defining factor.
Yes, I have a lot of anger for people who meet the most vulnerable parts of our society with hostility. I have an immense anger for people who don’t think these vulnerable people in the making have a place in society.
Congratulations on not being allowed to scream in public, ever. Did you good. Your parents had shitty standards and now you want to enforce these on other children so that they will also grow up and hate children. Great idea.
What you don’t understand (or pretend not to) is that you’re the one being judged, not the kids. It seems obvious from this chain that your kids are out of control and you get judged for it. I can think of no other reason you’d act this way.
I think the point of contention is that the user you debate is under the (right) assumption that when a child cries in public, this is just a small snapshot out of all the time the parents took them to any public place. A child crying is not a bug, it’s an inherent feature. They sometimes just do that, they don’t even know themselves, so it’s not the parents fault that their mini-human isn’t behaving like a fucking Gucci bag. Everything volvoxvsmarla said is true, children learn through trial an error and yes, you need to sometimes take the brunt of this process, I’m sorry little one. When children don’t learn how to behave in (for example) supermarkets because you banned them, then you get teenagers who didn’t learn to behave. You can’t pass the problem on forever. I’m a teacher and it really fucking shows when kids never learned how to exist in a public place.
BTW., this is not an excuse for parents who evidently don’t give a fuck or even worse, motivate their children to be brats so they entertain themselves. Scum of the earth. But it’s perfectly possible for parents to try their hardest and still fail sometimes.
I can tell you a specific scenario I take issue with. At the grocery store the other day, a child screamed at the top of its lungs all over the store. The parent never seemed to notice or care, but people everywhere were looking at each other, all clearly bothered. I’m sorry but that’s not my problem, that’s their shit to work out and they clearly don’t give a shit about others. Shitty parenting, 100% worthy of judgement.
We don’t have to assume that everyone bothered by kids at all hates kids or has no tolerance for their annoyances. OP did that, and took out what seems obvious to me as parental stress on users ITT. So I don’t really have much capacity left to empathize with them in particular.
No one is saying kids shouldn’t be allowed in public. They’re saying if your kid is losing their shit in a restaurant, remove them from the restaurant until they are done losing their shit.
Honestly, the judgement of parenting is not my main issue here. It’s the hypocrisy of at the same time saying “this is your problem, not mine” and “you have to deal with your problem so that I am not inconvenienced.”
Like, you can’t have it both ways. Either you don’t care, and then other people deserve the right to also not care about your opinion, or you do indeed care, and then it is your problem too. Your quote about not being part of the village is the one that I am saying fuck off to. You want to take yourself out of society and of the context, yet expect the other part to not take themselves out of society. You don’t even decide to look away, you decide to look with destructive criticism. I don’t see how this is supposed to help anyone, you included.
You come off as the type of person who will look at both the kid and the parent in disdain for being a nuisance even when they did something absolutely minor that you could easily avoid, ignore, or get away from. Are you assuming the kid will differentiate between your reaction towards them and their parent? Or that your reaction has no effect on the parent’s treatment of their child, perhaps in a more negative than positive way?
As for the judgement part, as I have pointed out somewhere else, you are seeing a sniplet of a day, of a life, of an hour. Yet you feel like you have enough information to rightfully judge. It’s correct that the kid might be subjected to bad, neglectful parenting and the parents do not care if their kid behaves awfully. Or you might have just met them in a vulnerable, bad moment. Somehow you know tho. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt or, God forbid, ask whether yoh can help? Offer a supporting smile to someone struggling? Why be hostile instead?
Because even if you took a perfect parent who does everything according to textbook from beginning to end, the kid will still have meltdowns in the most inconvenient and absurdly embarrassing moments in public.
And I have seen way too many parents who devote an insane amount of time and effort to their parenting, are reflected and have the best intentions and approaches, are incredibly level headed and collected (definitely not me tho), and give it their all, still being talked down upon by absolute strangers if they cannot make their preschool kid calm down within ten seconds. If these parents don’t stand a chance in the eye of public scrutiny, then I just don’t even know how a normal parent who doesn’t spend 24/7 thinking about their parenting choices has a chance.
I’ve also seen cases of what I would call bad parenting. Shaming, yelling, ignoring cries for help. But at least I can realise that I don’t know the full story. So unless I have a direct offer of help (tissue, water, bandaid, carrying something, etc) I let them be and hope that they know what they are doing and handling the situation to the best of their ability. I also know a kid who died of shaken baby syndrome because the new partner of their mom couldn’t handle the cries. I’d much prefer he ignored the cries and tantrums instead of killing the two year old boy.
It’s the hypocrisy of at the same time saying “this is your problem, not mine” and “you have to deal with your problem so that I am not inconvenienced.”
What the hell are you even talking about? It’s not complicated. Because you aren’t taking care of the issue, it became mine (and every other person being bothered). I can’t take enough drugs to understand how that wouldn’t be obvious, or how it could be “hypocrisy”. What the actual fuck. I chose not to have kids, you chose to. Therefore I cannot and should not be expected to help them not lose their shit. That is your job. Do it.
Also, you confused me with someone else. I didn’t mention “the village”. You must have also missed my comment where I said that I lost my empathy for you after your ragey diatribes where you shirk all your responsibility.
And for the record, when I see the parent actually trying, I don’t judge them, I just try to get through it and ignore the child’s cries, such as a baby screaming on a plane. What I cannot have compassion for are the people who do not seem to be trying in the least. Which is far too common.
We are not talking about kids babe, we are talking about YOU that is too tired to educate
You think the judgment is being leveled at the KIDS? No, no, no… nobody’s judging kids for acting out. They’re kids.
Kids aren’t the problem. Bad parents are the problem.
Judgement is only partially the problem. You are never as full of yourself as a parental figure as before you become one. Neglectful parents should be held accountable, that is not the core of the issue.
What bothers me immensely is the thought that “your kid, not my problem, but actually it is my problem, because I want them to behave differently”. This is like eating your cake and have it too.
The other thing that I find awful is that just existing on the outside (for some families even inside) is so anxiety evoking because of all these judgements. Parents end up micromanaging their kids and berating them for minor things because they are so fucking scared that people will judge them or yell at them for not having a picture perfect child that you can overlook. Children are not allowed to show any childish behavior on the outside. And this is what bothers me so much. You have to constantly choose between supporting your kid and gentle (not neglectful) parenting where you don’t yell or hit and simply being on their side or trying to appeal to the scrutiny of the public eye because it wants perfect order and quiet.
When you go vacationing in a child friendly country (looking at you, Croatia) and you feel supported instead of frowned upon for the exact same behaviors of your kid, because they are just having fun and not destroying anything and just minding their own business while not perfectly sitting still, then you just understand how shitty it is to go every day feeling the cold stare of everyone around who wished children would just die out.
I am a parent. My kid knows that some things aren’t okay to do in public and especially not in the direction of people who are trying to live their own lives. Teaching courtesy is not complicated.
Your third paragraph, from beginning to end, is INSANE and you’re telling on yourself quite a bit there.
Thank you for representing a normal parent reaction here. I too think this user comes off unhinged. It also seems to me like they think all their parenting shortcomings are someone else’s fault. If no one else’s, those people silently suffering in the public spaces they share with their screaming kids.
You can look around and see that the world is not ok on you imposing your misbihaved child on everyone.
I was once a child, correct, and I couldn’t leave my table in a restaurant, that was not even a question. I had to learn to behave otherwise I would be grounded at home. My father left the table more than once in a restaurant to take my brother to be grounded in the car. And came back once it was understood.
Limits are healthy and if it’s tok hard you can always gibe them to social services or not fucking having them.
Just look around a little. Nobody else cares about you baby or you.
Kid having a meltdown in the Walmart while their mom casually picks out yoga pants
volvoxvsmarla: “look at this fine example of parenting!”
I can’t find where the yoga pants part was supposedly said
Society norms have to be bilateral, and convenient for every member of the society.
One member of society cannot fuck around not expecting to, eventually, find out.
This is why we have laws, norms and social customs. So we can live in a society.
If members of society feel that they cannot longer live next to other members is when society breaks, and, you like it or not, the social pact gets broken.
You cannot force members of a society to live en the minimum common suffering denominator. To lower everyone standards of living to the one provided by the most annoying member of the society. That’s a highway to the society giving the big F to that member.
It should be the contrary, society should try to live to the standard of the less annoyance. To avoid bother the most sensible member of the group.
It’s a everyone loses vs everyone wins situation. We should aim for the later.
Absolutely. I swear, these people just want no one to ever dare have children and for humanity to go extinct.
Actually yes. Humans are just not good. Israel proves there’s no redemption for humanity.
I get daily contempt, just trying to do a few basic things as a non-neurotypical. Society hates humans so much, that if you show signs that you exist, and you show any humanity, you get so much hatred.
Humans aren’t appreciated in this world. Let them have their perfect AI, let humans die out.
Hahahahahaha
Being a good one is.
I would argue that being a bad one even has its challenges.
even being a bad parent can be very tough
It’s weird that it’s completely necessary for every single person to make that choice! Also, the kind of people that actually parent and don’t just unleash their loud, hyperactive child on strangers don’t get memes made about them.
Source: I was a loud, hyperactive child, but I was taught respect, consideration, and made to follow rules.
Tell me you’re not a parent without telling me you’re not a parent…
Let me know when you can participate in a genuine conversation without exclusively regurgitating tiktok phrases!
Right. Maybe that’s why you have mad social anxiety and the like. Because your parents beat your ass for even talking when out in public.
If every single one of your ancestors did something and so did everyone else’s on a planet of 8 billion, the thing is not that hard.
And entirely voluntary.
You’ve riled the forever alone nerds.
The answer isn’t to beat your kids though. I just think the current generation is taking the good advice to not hit your kids and is too impatient (or doesn’t have enough time) to actually raise kids that aren’t screaming all the damn time.
The whole “don’t say ‘no’ to your child“ …we’re gonna have a whole generation who won’t understand what nonconsent is. In a literal way too.
I do not understand these people who think boundaries break others. It’s massively flawed and problematic to train humans like this. It’s sabotaging their kids into being abusers and thinking they are above being kind.
We all have choices to be assholes. To be an asshole is a choice. Don’t make it their only option.
I can’t understand how such an obviously stupid approach to rasing kids even got off the ground to the point of general awareness. Any intelligent adult should be able to see how learning to take a “no” is an essential part of growing up. Same with dealing with negative emotions in general, which I understand the whole “never say no” thing is trying to avoid.
My daughter was taught how to take a no at a young age. It was a bit rough the first few times, but she quickly learned to take them in stride.
I have come to understand that the whole “don’t say no” thing is less about directly saying no and leaving it at that and more about taking the time to explain things to your child.
When it comes to new situations for things that I haven’t yet encountered I don’t just say no. I sit down with them and explain to them why.
Yes there are times when I will just say no, like when they know what the answer is going to be and understand why but are just doing it to do it, or if there isn’t time in that specific moment to explain I would preface it with that and then explain it later.
I think people misinterpret the whole don’t say no thing sometimes and literally just give their kids whatever they want which is obviously not good. Boundaries are not optional, and like you mention it is a flawed way of thinking and will absolutely lead to problems down the road.
Yes that makes sense. And yeah bad parents have done some damage with that, especially the boundary thing is important.
some people are allowed to not have all the answers, they just know that ‘no’ is their answer(especially important in where sex turns into rape and power positions).
Where I’m going with this: Abusers will try to gain a ‘why’ just to erode the reason for the ‘no’ as a way to coerce a no into a yes. These particular situations is where ‘no is a complete sentence’ is taught as a perfectly appropriate response.
You are absolutely correct.
I didn’t think about it at the time when I wrote my response but there have been situations with mine where he has done things that cross personal boundaries, at his age it’s more of him just being young enough to have that boundary himself but not understand that other people also have them.
Those were very quickly remedied by either explanation using his personal boundaries as an example or if that didn’t work then acting as if we were going to do something that crossed his boundaries so that he understands in those situations that no is an acceptable response full stop.
I could definitely see where not handling those immediately could turn into an absolute nightmare.
Try telling your kids not to scream.
… and watch them screaming even more just to annoy you.
It’s so fucking insane to me that the majority of Americans think beating your kids is acceptable and even healthy
Then You haven’t met Australians
Damn, I would think corporal punishment would be illegal in Australia of all places
/woosh
Kids don’t “scream JUST to annoy you”. If you think that you might be the parent people are complaining about.
Kids are gonna be kids sometimes mate. But they are people not. They aren’t doing something “just to annoy you”. They have reasons they act the way they do. And it’s always because of who raised them.
My point was about actually being a parent and being able to raise a child with mutual respect. It’s obviously not just “stop screaming”.
The biggest thing is teaching your child that screaming does not get them positive results. Lots of parents have a really hard time transitioning from raising an infant, to raising a toddler, to raising a kid.
By the time they are a teenager they are still whining like an infant to get what they want.
I heard a kid screaming in public a couple weeks ago. I swear to God it sounded like a toddler having a tantrum. I look over and it’s literally a kid at least 10 years old. It blew my mind. The parents where treating him like an infant trying to find out what he wanted.
Yeah, part of it is to teach that they won’t get their way by annoying you into giving in. Helps in my case that I can be a stubborn fuck, too. It means I have to choose my battles because I don’t want to back myself into a situation where I make a choice, realize it’s not the best one, but feel like I have to stand my ground to combat whining. Luckily we’re past the point of tantrums and she’s old enough that I can explain my reasoning in cases where I say one thing at first but then later change my mind.
But there’s two other parts imo. One is teaching them the right way to express what they want (as well as when stating what they want might be rude or out of line, like if it’s in response to getting a gift that isn’t their top choice). And the other is being open and honest about the why. I only use “because I said so” or some equivalent to deal with the endless chain of "why?"s (though I’ve found deflecting it back at her is also effective, like “why do you think it is?”).
Wow, I was actually agreeing with you here. Telling your kids to not scream does not work.
So yes, woosh apparently.
Well given the equal up and down votes on your comment I think your reply can clearly be interpreted as disagreement. Also, saying kids “scream just to annoy you” is ignorant.
Don’t make an unclear ignorant comment and expect people to take it in good faith.
If you make adversarial choices, your kids will definitely scream to annoy you. You took it as me saying that kids “only” scream to annoy, which is obviously not true.
So yes, I was on the internet assuming that people argue in good faith and try to have a good time … I mean yeah, I guess I should have seen that one coming.
I think I’m not cut out for this.
Your comment used the word “just” which in that sentence literally means “only”. You could have cleared up the misunderstanding. But your short comment was ignorant sounding. It’s why it got down voted mate.
I agree much of this comes down to parenting. I’m right with you on the passive parenting. It’s introducing unnecessary problems upon the child and society.
That said random kids we see could also have learning disabilities that aren’t apparent at first.
My nephew is on autistic spectrum and does tantrums at 12 all because plans change (part of life but he’s still struggling with that despite consistency). He doesn’t appear at first as any different from any teenager until he’s triggered. It’s not appropriate. We always remind him to speak respectfully. He has a younger sister who is way more adjusted by comparison (has normal tween struggles) but she’s not as neurodivergent. Basic parenting advice on behavior is working for her.
Though it can be a struggle to talk a child out of this when it’s beyond just understanding. Learning to cope is just taking longer for this teen. Possibly aging into medication and long term therapy. It took that for my other niece on a different spectrum who’s still finding the right medication and adjusting.
Just something to consider when judging random ppl.
Well, neither is true, though. Newer generations don’t just magically have less patience. Nor children today are more prone to tantrums and screaming than children in the past 30 million years. That’s just good old, “back in my days”, backwards thinking that has, ironically, also always existed amongst the older generations.
It’s a song and dance, driven by evolution, it has happened before and it will continue to happen. As this thread and hundreds of threads, and newspaper articles, and postcards, and letters, and books, and clay tablets and campfire rants have proven, ever since humans developed speech.
Kids these days.
The internet has drastically and measurably changed the behavior and attention span of children.
Socrates said the same thing about books.
And that is equally true.
We said the same thing. Of the TV. And the radio before that. And of the comics before that. And of the theater before that. And of the circus before that. Etc.
We ought to be careful of many pseudoscientific claims. Specially in psychology. We don’t have a control group of children before the advent of the internet to compare today’s children with. The “i 'member!” crowd are now all adults, a group who are notoriously biased and bad at being objective regarding their own childhood.
We can compare today’s children with and without certain habits, and indeed it has been found that mobile internet access, and social media specially, are detrimental to children in some personality development aspects and cognitive skills. But this is not a pass to make broad generalizations of entire generations of all children and parents across the globe. That’s just generational bigotry.
Like, different habits lead to different behaviors? Sure, no shit. But that doesn’t change the fundamental make up of human beings.
I’m a little confused why you don’t think there have been journaled studies on the differences between children with access to technology and those without. Some examples are impoverished communities and countries and people in strict religious sects. TV, radio, books, they have all had an impact on they way brains develop and process information. Biologically no, if you pluck a newborn and place them in North Sentinel Island, they will adapt perfectly. But that’s the thing, the human mind is meant to adapt to its surroundings. The surrounding of the majority of children today is being absolutely bombarded with distractions, and it has a measurable affect on behavior across the board.
Oh, let me clarify. There are studies. What I mean is that you cannot compare today’s children to children from, say, 200 years ago, not even 50 years ago. It’s not possible as people back then unfortunately couldn’t see the future and foresee that their future scientific counterparts would need certain observational data on children’s behaviors. So we have cross sectional and cohort studies on the impact of smart phones and the internet. But this won’t say anything about generational differences amongst children, or the generational comparative differences to previous cohorts of children. Thus, it is impossible to say “parents today are less patient” or “kids today scream more”. Those are stupid and annoying common place generalizations from people who don’t know jack about developmental psychology or parenting.
Listen, I have two degrees. The first is a B.S. in Psychology with a Neuroscience emphasis, and the other is a B.A. in Cognitive Science. And anecdotally, I also have two children. I only state that so we can skip past all the talk of “bigotry”, and “stupid and annoying” generalizations. It doesn’t matter that we can’t compare to children 50 years ago, if we acknowledge that “x” has an impact on children and that “y%” of children are exposed to “x”, isn’t the outcome the same?
For fucks sake, it takes a psychologist to be a pedant idiot on the internet against another psych. I also have a Bachelors in psychology and a Master in sociology. And as my doctorate tutor likes to say during debates when people throw credentials around as if they mean something to basic facts and science, “do you have an argument or are you just interested in comparing dick sizes?”
I don’t hit my kids, I barely even yell. They’re the most well-behaved kids I know. Almost as though respecting your kids and spending time with them makes them happier? And maybe kids that feel respected act better? It’s a parenting problem. Youth are the future, we the parents decide what that future looks like.
It’s boundaries, expectations and consistancy in consequences if they break the rules.
Yes, teaching kids to behave is far more effective than beating them into compliance. Sure, they have difficulty grasping it in their early years, but with repetition it eventually sinks in like all of the other things we teach them.
ITT people taking issue with parenting methods not even being advocated for. If you take your children to public places, of course everyone knows they are children, but they still shouldn’t be pulling stuff off racks, running around screaming and licking the windows, or putting hands on other people or children.
You don’t have to yell at them or beat them or anything else, but if they can’t pull themselves together in public then work on it and consider not bringing them to such places. My mom made us all repeat the rules before we left the car (no running, no putting things in the cart without being asked, keep one hand on the cart while we are moving or something like those) and if we didn’t follow the rules we all went back to the car. Simple as that.
Edit: sometimes you gotta go do something and take the kids. If they’re acting feral at least maybe don’t be the parent who looks like they are totally cool with it and just pretend it isn’t happening?
My mom made us all repeat the rules before we left the car (no running, no putting things in the cart without being asked, keep one hand on the cart while we are moving or something like those)
Wow, I’d forgotten this till just now - my mother did the same. Thanks for the memory jog!
I can remember being 2 or 3 years old and the golden rule then was to always be holding someone’s hand - parent/sibling, etc.
