Israeli and Zionist influence in the USA is a purposeful choice of the American government. It allows the American government to circumvent many domestic and international laws by allowing Israeli firms to do the spying and dirty work for them. Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus (and therefore, American capital). This has created a feedback loop of constantly reinforcing settler colonialism and American economic extraction of the Middle East. If America withdrew support to Israel, this feedback loop would cease and Israel would be greatly diminished or completely collapse.
Saying Israel controls America is simply wrong, stop saying this. I will remove your post. ✌️
edit: altered title for clarification and to avoid nonsensical semantic arguments
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I agree that it’s wrong and bad analysis. I could say more about it but mostly I’m just wondering why more poor judgement interventions being made by mod/admin team. Like are you bored or something? Not enough notifications this weekend?
Obviously a policy decree like this without discussion is going to rub people the wrong way regardless of its content. Like obviously. If you are trying to solve some sort of problem, you should say what the problem is and why you think this is the way to solve it. Instead of unilaterally announcing site political policy, apparently on your own individual initiative. Is there like some sort of schedule where carcosa has to have a reason to make an accountability post every so often? Is it over due? Are you attempting to concoct a learning experience to train new mods in crowd control? Trying to boost site traffic? Why would a person in a position of authority decide to make this particular intervention? On any topic.
Have the discussion then make the rule. Good god. Why always doing it the other way around? Announce a rule to provoke a discussion?
It really makes me thump my head in particular for someone who was on the wrong side of the recent
israel-coolstruggle session that was so upsetting to make announcements of site political policy on the same topic. My feeling is that this is a continuation of that conversation. At least this time you have bothered to come up with a coherent political idea so it shows some progress I guess. But it is not tied to the intervention you have decided upon, so still incomplete. It would have been better for someone with more credibility on this issue to introduce the question. Honestly it does seem intentionally inflammatory.To recap:
The mods/admins (including OP kristina) apparently arrived collectively amongst themselves at a completely ass backwards opinion which was in opposition to the entire rest of the userbase. (Briefly for those who missed it: the then-non-existent emoji of the burning israel flag would, if added, be an antisemitic dogwhistle and/or convey approval of the holocaust.) This was a reflection of some sort of prior discussion and ideas which had at the time had some degree of consensus from userbase. In the intervening years, every person on planet earth had their analysis of this issue sharpened at least a little bit, hexbears included, and the general opinion had changed dramatically which was not understood by the mods/admins. Instead of engaging with the political concepts and moment, they decided to instigate and then all piled on a giant shit show throwdown fight. Which when they understood themselves to be losing badly, told the “stupid” users to stop wasting their time posting on trivial matters. Many different aspects of political argument from users only met with inter-personal, conspiratorial, and emotional from mods/admins.
Eventually, “confused” why anybody (to say nothing of everybody else) cared about inconsequential emoji, the mods/admins backed away from the fight, unbanned numerous users, emoji was added by 1 mod who apparently was able to change opinions with rest of planet earth. The userbase was overall managed into a more peaceful situation because ultimately, that’s how the balance of power goes. Various people left the site or withdrew because the conflict was so hostile. The collective political clarification came at a price.
But unless I missed it (and I could have) there was never any resolution. No indication that any of the minority who were on the incoherent side of that argument changed their mind politically during or after the struggle session. Nor was the question of why mods/admins were permitting and even encouraging each other to go around ratcheting up the hostility on the basis of personal disputes.
It was just a stalemate. Mod applications opened and I assume (?) the team expanded, hopefully adding some diversity of opinions to better reflect the userbase. Everyone awaiting vague reforms.
Even kamala harris knows that everything exists in context and we didn’t just fall out of a coconut tree. I am not “relitigating”. I am wondering why again mod deciding to stir shit up by leading with censorious and dismissive assertions instead of attempting to collaborate.
I think this choice does a real disservice to the ostensible goal of the intervention by winding up feelings of interpersonal power struggle with politics. It is so arrogant, in the specific context of the recent chapter described above.
And look, if you are going to lead with threats it ought to be with an argument which has been better developed. It is clear from comments already that userbase again has a more nuanced understanding of the topic than the person who condescendingly lectures and warns of consequences should they step out of line according to her judgement.
Even those who broadly agree with the core ideas are seeking to develop the point further. Because as posted, it is insufficiently mature. Disagreement, discomfort, confusion, and contributions are being made re the politics and/or the policy. This comment is solely addressed at the policy, its implementation and the broader framework.
At minimum, the political stance that is to be enforced on this website requires significant clarification so that users can understand what the rule applies to, and mods can have clear guidance. Which is good for mods because it avoids the perception that that are arbitrarily enforcing ill-considered, unknown and unknowable rules according to their mood. It’s better if there is some degree of mutual understanding rather than initiating with conflict.
Soon will have a bunch of bans I guess? In this very thread there are outright refutations, yet the comments are not removed. So a rule is announced, then it is immediately ignored? On replies that generate a notification to OP who is so interested to enforce. So what is the meaning?
good post. dont think it will do anything though, how many struggle sessions have we had over mod behavior now and they’re still as opaque about their actual goals and intentions as ever? 3 or 4 in the past year alone it feels likeZionist Occupied Hexbear
I agree with this post. This is a recurring issue, there’s clearly a problem with how these things are decided.
@CARCOSA@hexbear.net , I asked a while ago in a shitshow of a post I probably shouldn’t have made, but I’m coming back to it now. I think hellinkllla here is highlighting the important point about how we keep coming to this sort of moment.
Good to see you Hellinkilla, and good post. Full agreement from me with every line above.
I’m eating ice cream rn
(edit: dw its not dairy)
@hellinkilla@hexbear.net provided what I thought was well thought out feedback to this moderation post, and I think this is a very dismissive, unproductive reply. Why reply at all?
I agree that it’s wrong and bad analysis. I could say more about it but mostly I’m just wondering why more poor judgement interventions being made by mod/admin team. Like are you bored or something? Not enough notifications this weekend?
I said I was eating icecream :smuglord:
Kristina, you’re not touching grass, you’re being mean.
Jesus why the fuck are you being so dismissive? Is this a thing where mods get drunk and do horribly short-sided and harmful things for fun? If it’s an inside joke, have fun I guess, but it’s unbarably cringe and making me doubt trust in mods at all
Starting to see the downside of a site culture built on a subreddit built on irony poisoning.
I think the site culture still maintains some boundaries at which we react seriously to hard work put into a thought or idea. This is just an instance of someone missing that entirely and needing to reflect on that. Maybe it is impossible to maintain these 2 different cultural aspects I guess
Yes, I agree, it’s OK to be ironic sometimes as long as you can be serious when needed. I think the irony has been reduced over the years, but sometimes it can still spill out like this in a completely counterproductive context.
and making me doubt [sic] trust in mods at all
My faith in the mods hit rock bottom during the DNS issue and has remained at rock bottom across all the other struggle sessions of the past year. Seeing this thread, Pippi Longstocking has for the umpteenth time put her hand on my shoulder and told me to make an Eigo Kinshi splinter of Hexbear already… Alas, I remain broke, know jack about computers, and don’t like that sort of attention, anyways.
this site is toast
As I said, no one is making you reply. You can just say nothing, lol.
If you’re that busy eating ice cream maybe you shouldn’t be a mod
I’m more inclined to say it’s a mutually beneficial relationship in which the US overlooks Israeli influence (and control) in US politics because of the benefits it gains from Israel. The US could at any time reverse this, by removing its support for Israel, but the issue with this argument is that the US literally never will do this because of both the benefits of Israel to the US in the middle east and the influence(and control) within US politics.
It’s an entanglement. A tangled web of connections that can not be unentangled. They simultaneously control each other and because they will never disentangle they will never cease to simultaneously be controlled by and control the other.
I do think it’s strongly flawed to say the US simple controls Israel by its ability to step back from support though, it’s not a card that can or will ever be used so it functionally does not exist.
Another good, nuanced take that captures why I didn’t like the original post.
the OP is a clumsy attempt to clarify the boundaries of discussion on the site to conform to the comfort of selected individuals. All these nuanced takes are at cross purposes with that. Irrelevant at best because the decision has been made and input not required.
I don’t think the admins are against input. If they were I wouldn’t even be allowed to say this.
What they do from time to time is act clumsy in laying down their boundaries. They’re absolutely right to say it is totally unacceptable to make the far right argument of Israel controlling da wurld. Which is really all that they are saying with this post. The issue is that they get this across in a way that implies there is a problem in the wider userbase’s nuanced takes, which there almost always is not, and when this is taken the wrong way people negatively react because they do not want a chilling effect on debate about the nuanced entanglements.
Yes, I think we need to make an important distinction here. The word “control” is used for two valid, but distinct things: Sometimes it’s used to argue about moral responsibility. Sometimes it’s about strategy in our struggle. Like if one side “controls” the other, are there nodes of control that can be exposed and targeted politically? I think in both cases, the word “control” simplifies the complex relationship, so I won’t use it any more in this. But luckily it’s not needed to answer either question.
About moral responsibility, I think it’s really important to recognize, that powerful people in the US (politicians, generals, billionaires, etc.) are equally responsible for the genocide, just like the ones in Israel. Both can be morally responsible at the same time. The same goes for state institutions. Morally, the ones in the US do have the freedom to withdraw support and that would stop the genocide. It’s not important for moral consideration, that they won’t do that for material reasons. To face this moral truth is important for our propaganda and also a question of respect and solidarity for Palestinians.
The other question is about our strategy. Here, a materialist perspective is needed. From inside the imperial core, pushing for BDS is the obvious strategy, which targets Israel directly. But because of the “tangled web of connections”, which you mentioned, there are also important sides of struggle in the US. And many center around trying to sever at least some of those connections: the ones between universities in the US and Israel for example. US firms with close ties to Israel are another. There are others and these sides of struggle can be understood as an extensions of BDS.
Politically targeting legislature, think tanks, members of congress with ties to Israel is another logical strategy. It’s best to concentrate on few targets instead of spreading our efforts out. Like snipping one strang of a complicated knot at a time instead of trying to rip it all apart at once.
This strategy does not mean, that we believe a complete severance of the connections between the US and Israel is possible. It is not. Even, if Israel was magically destroyed tomorrow, the US would invent a new one. But similar to a labor struggle in which a single strike can’t abolish capitalism, anti-imperialist actions can still gain wins, even if the whole of imperialism isn’t abolished yet.
I also agree with this
deleted by creator
I big missing piece of this discussion is the historical Christian influence for Western control the Holy Land. In so many ways the Crusades never ended. It also sheds additional light on why Israel is held in special regard compared to other American and European imperial projects. I find it useful to see Israel through a Crusader State lens as it reveals parallels of the, often competing, influences that historically drove Western interest in that spot in particular.
If America withdrew support to Israel, this feedback loop would cease and Israel would be greatly diminished or completely collapse.
Absolutely true. I would add the rest of Europe and “The West”, but we all know they are on board anyways. The Crusader States eroded and collapsed with the attenuating support of the West as well.
Hey so when are we getting that official constructive session on Zionism in the mod/admin team? Just chucking things like this over the fence doesn’t count by the way.
Example: “Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus (and therefore, American capital).”
This is incorrect and Zionist apologetic and I think it’s being thrown in because of focusing on a right wing trope that absolves US blame, but it is actually an overcorrection. Same as the Zionist entity flag burning emoji. Instead of overcorrecting and making escalatory announcements, you should really actually do that constructive session to deal with Zionism in the mod and admin team, which I will remind you is tantamount to Nazi sympathy in the mod and admin team.
I usually defend the mods here somewhat because I think they’re trying their best, but yes, that whole thing was never properly addressed and clearly isn’t over.
if they were trying their best, they would take seriously the many, many concerns people have had about a lack of accountability, transparency, and community input over the past year. instead they continue to make decisions in a black box matrix server where they shittalk the userbase - the people that actually make this site worthwhile despite its many, deep problems - and run cover for abusive members of the community if those people are their personal friends or they find them funny enough or they align on some pet issue. i’m not mad at your comment to be clear, i’ve agreed with your analysis across this whole struggle sesh and am pointing out what i think the real core issue here is.
shit, i wanted to find the right time/place to make a nerdy effortpost about how people are operating on an oversimplified view of what a “vassal state” is, how there’s a base superstructure feedback loop here where US imperialism is the root cause, but belief in Zionism w/in the ruling class takes on a life of its own and informs the base, but that’s not worth it right now because it’s clear people’s analyses on israel aren’t the issue and neither is antisemitism. it’s site management refusing to take an L, self crit, change site processes, and then continuing to cudgel the userbase with their radlib liberal zionist brainworms they refuse to grow on. (and to be just slightly conciliatory, yes, mods are not a monolith - when i say “the mods, the admins, site management” i mean admins and the powermods they allow the most sway over the community).
shit, i wanted to find the right time/place to make a nerdy effortpost about how people are operating on an oversimplified view of what a “vassal state” is, how there’s a base superstructure feedback loop here where US imperialism is the root cause, but belief in Zionism w/in the ruling class takes on a life of its own and informs the base, but that’s not worth it right now because it’s clear people’s analyses on israel aren’t the issue and neither is antisemitism.
Please do still make that post if you can! Despite the disappointing mod behavior, I still think that that would be an interesting post and would generate an interesting discussion.
maybe in a chiller comm once the struggle session dies down
it was mostly gonna be some basic marxism 101 about how base-superstructure operates
idk they’re probably too busy shit talking the userbase in their matrix chat
It’s not as simple as your making it out to be. Both sides infleunce each other, it’s just america is much more powerful so it has more infleunce on it.
True. It’s just important to point out that it isn’t like Israel is just secretly controlling America. America is happy working with Israel and Israel is happy working with America.
This distinction is important because it feeds into the liberal idea that the system works, there’s just a few bad apples in power that need to be voted out and then genocide will stop. No, the system is functioning how it’s supposed to. US imperialism benefits the bourgeois. That’s why it’s happening.
Ah yes, remove any posts that don’t vibe with you.
Israeli and Zionist influence in the USA is a purposeful choice of the American government. It allows the American government to circumvent many domestic and international laws by allowing Israeli firms to do the spying and dirty work for them
The American government is totally allowing “israel” to wiretap the president’s phone conversations.
I have not had a single election, local, state, or federal, since I began voting, that did not have candidates receiving money from AIPAC, dem or republican alike. To think “israel” has no control over US politics is just wrong. Look how many politicians are tanking their own careers to back “israel’s” genocide. The candidates in the upcoming election in my parent’s district has every candidate jumping through hoops to show their loyalty to the zionist entity. To claim that they haven’t been influenced by the zionist lobby is an opinion removed from reality.
And what about Epstein? Maxwell’s father Literally worked for the Mossad. Do you think some loser like Epstein, who had no real future manager to randomly become a rich playboy just by trafficking children? No external mechanisms that got him rich clients that could in turn be used to blackmail them? It’s not even like “israel” is denying these facts with any effort. They’re constantly making subtle references to how much influence they have over our politicians.
Netanyahu brought up the sex tapes in the context of the Pollard demand … not wanting to directly threaten the powerful American president, a crucial Israeli ally, Clinton was told that the Israeli government had thrown the tapes away
Yeah the US government totally isn’t influenced by “israel” and they totally control the dog on the leash and actually the US wanted their own president to have his office telephone bugged for 10091838292 IQ reasons none of us would understand.
There are so many more examples of these dog politicians tanking their own careers to give their undying support to a foreign country, to try and pretend that the influence doesn’t go both ways is not buried in reality.
Totally normal for a US politician by the way they’re totally not influenced bro stop being antisemitic bro you don’t understand the money isn’t influencing them bro they just do it to expand the US’s imperial interests trust me
AIPAC is an American political organization. You have yet to explain why it wouldn’t be in the interest of the US ruling class to bankroll Israel, which deindustrializes Arab countries and brings the gilf monarchies to heel at a time when they seem eager to find less dangerous options. Did Hitler hypnotize the Americans as well? What about the Rhodesians?
These bribery & blackmail arguments are always used to compensate for the small scale of the Jewish bourgeoisie relative to the rest of the first world bourgeoisie. The premise is that there is a functioning US political system not composed of bribery, blackmail, insider trading, and constant manipulation as a tool of the bourgeoisie. There isn’t. Getting rid of AIPAC would not get rid of support for Israel or the lucrative reasons why the support exists.
the gilf monarchies
I don’t mean to kinkshame, but I just don’t see King Salman that way…
Why does AIPAC exist then? Why do they lobby so much money to get their hand-picked zionists into positions of power? They spent millions of dollars to overthrow anti-zionist seats in congress and the house. If their political organization didn’t matter then why are they spending so much money into it?
If I knew I already had the winning numbers to a lottery ticket, why would I spend even more of my money on lottery tickets?
“israel” would have faced a similar fall as apartheid South Africa after this genocide if the foreign lobbying from the zionist entity did not bug, blackmail, and bribe politicians across the globe.
For the same reason why any conservative PAC exists. Do you think that Taiwanese and Ukrainian politicians are just bribing everyone, and there is no benefit to the US ruling class from supporting these military occupations? What about the Philippines lol? It’s not just direct colonial powers, a regional subimperialist state that oppresses all the other states and its internal populations retivitalizes the colonial extraction system and destroys unwanted means of production.
The era of colonization has ended though. The imperialists could have just as easily influenced a Palestinian state, like they have done with the gulf states and Ukraine, Taiwan, and the Phillipines to bow to the empire. Notice how the imperialists didn’t import an entire ethnic group into those countries, they just imported their ideologies.
They already did it with the Palestinian Authority, any country that shows the slightest pushback against the imperialists gets blown to pieces or overthrown. See Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria.
Why prop up a colonial entity when we’ve moved past that stage of imperialism? The masses became “woke” to colonialism post-WWII and most imperialist countries instead have a way to make their evils less transparent in their ways of controlling another country’s resources. Color revolutions, “soft-power” via predatory IMF loans with clauses demanding for privatization of infrastructure are ways to name a few.
Why go through all this effort manufacturing fake historical justifications for why this type of colonization is good, when they already have the gulf states and the Palestinian Authority as loyal servants to the empire?
Edit: even the Xinhua Institute says pre-WW2 colonization is dead. Enough with the vibes-based analysis.
The era of colonization has ended though.
This is literally the ACP reactionary line.
How? Do you think any country will be able to invade another country and settle their own citizens after enslaving or genociding the original inhabitants? Correct me if I’m wrong but it doesn’t happen anymore. It’s much easier to have plausible deniability on the world stage if your colony is not a direct extension of your own citizens.
Apparently the Xinhua Institute’s Colonization of the Mind was actually the ACP’s tricknology infecting China.
In the wake of WWII, national liberation movements swept across the globe, numerous independent nation-states sprang up like bamboo shoots after the rain, the global colonial system established by European powers crumbled, and the world entered the post-colonial era. As the new global hegemon, the United States discovered that, faced with numerous “awakened” nationalist nation-states, relying solely on “hard power” in the forms of political domination, economic control, military deterrence, among others, could not establish or sustain a lasting and extensive colonial rule; instead, employing “soft power” such as culture and values would enable it to reap higher colonial rewards at lower costs.
It is happening right now in Israel…
I think theres some additional nuance to OP’s position. Theyre not arguing AIPAC doesn’t exert tremendous pressure on USian politics, they’re saying that it does so as part of a larger colonial process which the US is bought into.
Also, AIPAC isnt the same as Israel, I believe its leadership is most evangelicals
AIPAC’s leadership are not mostly evangelicals. their dogs in the government are evangelicals/christian zionists but AIPAC themselves are lead by israelis who are jewish. (not that them being jewish is relevant to that, i just mean, they’re not evangelicals)
I think theres some additional nuance to OP’s position. Theyre not arguing AIPAC doesn’t exert tremendous pressure on USian politics, they’re saying that it does so as part of a larger colonial process which the US is bought into.
The original title of this post was something like “Israel does not control American politicians” so you can understand why people might have gotten confused.
Yes, but the claim that they’re the US’s dog on a leash is not entirely true. They have consistently operated in their own interests and against the US’s interests many, many times. The US depleted their anti-air missile stockpiles during the 10-day war with Iran.
Entrapping pedophile politicians and bugging the president don’t seem like something a loyal dog would do. If Britain, France, or Germany acted in the ways that “israel” did they would be invaded.
just because the attack dog sometimes does stuff we don’t like doesn’t mean we don’t hold the leash. america allows israel to exist because despite some minor transgressions it still materially benefits them to do so. individual politicians can believe all sorts of dumb shit but it doesn’t change the fundamental power dynamic behind them
But what is the point? They already captured the gulf monarchies. They have military bases in every single one of these countries except for “israel”.
If anything the maintenance of the zionist entity is causing more harm than good to the interests of the imperialists. Mass protests at the “israeli” embassy in Jordan. Jordan’s president is already an imperialist dog who received an education in England and sends his kids to Georgetown University in America, with Jordanian police teargassing and shooting at their own civilians. Pakistan, a US ally, killed 4 people as protestors mobilized against the genocide. “israel” bombed Qatar, a country that actively hosts a US military base. They’ve been annexing Syrian land and bombing Damascus, even after the US puppet Jolani was installed.
None of these are “minor transgressions”
i agree that the bombing of qatar seemed to be a bridge too far for america. that’s why they yanked the leash so fast. at the same time, they did yank the leash. if isfake has become a net liability, it would be a relatively recent development. still, i’m thinking the iran strikes more than justified their utility to the imperial bourgeoisie
Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus (and therefore, American capital).
What the fuck is this shit? Israel is literally in the process of committing the worst genocide of the 21st century and now we’re getting mod-sponsored hasbara that Israel has no agency and it’s all just America?
Yeah I had let it go after the last one despite only calling multiple times for something to acknowledge the tendencies which I can only really regard as Jewish supremacist (‘the Jewish Israelis can’t be guilty of doing things aside from the US empire, otherwise it’s ZOG’ has to carve out some space and I can’t imagine why else other than Jewish supremacy)
I don’t think the mods are “Jewish supremacist”, they’re afraid of Hexbear looking antisemitic in the eyes of people who don’t distinguish between anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism. It’s a silly concern IMO since those people already hate Hexbear for being “tankies” and actual antisemitism has always been a bannable offense.
Yeah I don’t intend on accusing anyone of “being Jewish supremacist” just that a tendency to tacitly accept some arguments based in it has occurred. That includes overprotection against anti-Semitism relative to other biases (by overprotection I mean protection against things not actually anti-Semitism so ‘overcorrecting’, not the zeal with which protection is done)
Two parties (America and Israel) can be guilty of genocide
Do you even believe two parties exist? Because you just said that Israel is "entirely controlled " by US intelligence, a group which is famously bad at controlling their various proxies.
This whole thread is starting to feel like
where mods decide that Israel gets special treatment because the reality of what Israel is doing is running a little close to old antisemitic tropes (nevermind that Israel = Judaism is a Zionist idea in the first place).
this is just bad analysis and it’s an incredibly uncharitable interpretation of a better analysis. israel commits genocide because it’s in america’s interest. america just recently pulled the leash because they started messing with trump jr’s business partners. it’s not often you get such an obvious show of any underlying power dynamic, which is why it confuses me that this is the issue hexbear chooses to have a struggle session over
israel commits genocide because it’s in america’s interest
Did you willfully ignore everything you knew about Zionism when you wrote that?
sorry, let me clarify. the zionists are allowed to commit genocide because it’s in america’s interest. they are accorded the resources necessary to exterminate an entire population, to spread propaganda, and to educate new zionists specifically because it is in the material interest of the imperial bourgeoisie. ideology doesn’t arise in a vacuum, especially the more fascist ones like zionism
Why are we pretending that nation-states are singular entities with their own “wills”? They are networks of intelligent actors exchanging information and “energy” (money in this case). The “israel” net is heavily overlapped with the “america” net, and there is a large flow of information/energy across the 2 nets. The “america” net being much larger gives more of its energy to “israel” than vice versa, but the word “control” is meaningless for describing interactions as complicated geopolitics.
A lot of the discourse around this whole topic uses the verbal short-hand of treating nation-states as if they were entities with a will. And for good reason because a lot of the times, it’s an OK approximation. But other times, you just end up arguing about meaningless things.
Very good post. Agreed 100%
Oh we got 2 threads about this. I’ll post the same thing in both. I will not argue with anyone about this.
“Isreal has a powerful lobby with lots of Western backing and a far reaching influence as a result” is fine.
“I’m gonna use neo Nazi terminology that originates from white supremacist conspiracy views about how Jews secretly control everything” is not.
It’s honestly not even that complicated. One is factual. The other is neo Nazi propaganda. Hexbear can do better. Death death to the IOF
the issue here is that nobody seems to know who or what the fuck yall are talking about with this nazi propaganda supposedly being an issue on hexbear. who here can say they’ve run into antisemites or antisemitism here? i’ve read about a billion posts on this site criticizing israel, israel’s influence in western governments. not once have i read any sort of antisemitic conspiracy theories, it’s all based entirely in material analysis and using our own eyeballs and ears.
some mod can make a post like this, then suddenly criticizing aipac is antisemitic and posts about who is taking money from israel, or about how you have to sign a loyalty pledge to israel to be a fuckin mailman in the US will be removed for “antisemitism”
i really think mods need to hold some sort of vote on this, because judging by the replies in this thread the userbase seems to really not know what yall are on. i can’t speak for everyone ofc but i do not wanna use a website that conflates criticisms of the zionist entity with being antisemitic. hexbear is quite literally the only place online where at least right now, you can freely criticize israel without being censored or fearing that you’re secretly interacting with a bunch of nazis. granted i dont look at the mod log, maybe there are a ton of antisemites washing their antisemitism with criticisms of israels. i definitely don’t see it tho and it doesn’t seem like anyone else on this site does either?
They’re probably on edge because of this:
Then they should clarify their intentions.
People in this thread investigating and speculating regarding the motivations of site mods/admins as though they were Q. Why can’t mods/admins speak for themselves to a clear way? Making everyone chase them around like this is such strange undisciplined behavior.
My impression previously was that mods/admins understand this kind of scrutiny on their every action is possible but like anyone else don’t want to have the whole site breathing down their necks while they work. Taking such puzzling actions heavily encourages people to monitor them all the time which in the long run will only be uncomfortable for them. It would be much smarter to take the time to write something up instead of relying on others to sniff up the breadcrumbs and put together a theory of mind on that basis.
lol that’s the first time i’ve ever seen anyone use that term on this site. i do think that should be removed, to be clear. with that being said, i would also look at that user’s profile history and see what kinda stuff they post. their name is familiar but i don’t know them off the top of my head. it could be that they just saw that term and used it not knowing what it really meant and thought it was just short term for zionist or some shit. no reason to see one person use a term 3 days ago then make a post about the widespread antisemitism on this site and acting like you’re gonna start cracking down on it
I’ve seen it here n there. And swift, consistent mod action will obviously discourage it. So it it somewhat a case where absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. On the other instances I have seen a lot and it looks to be very difficult to effectively moderate once the claws get in.
But I agree with you that this OP is confusing and unhelpful. I have no idea why (or even if) anybody thought this would be productive towards the stated goal.
So in order to understand the rules by which the site is governed, everyone needs to read this whole thread, now approaching 100 comments and surely will get many more, to find this special one that has the correct articulation?
No, to understand the rules by which the site is governed people can go read the code of conduct which is linked at the bottom of every page
Nice struggle session you got going on here. Would be a shame if someone farted on it.
lol jfc. Sure let’s say control is the wrong word. Does Israel heavily influence American politics? Yes. If you think saying that is anti Semitic you might be a Democratic candidate. It’s a symbiotic relationship at this point. We’ve been blaming America already for a while now, blaming Israel is new to us. 15 years ago if i heard the word zionist, it was some white supremacist shit. It’s also not our fault they are an ethnostate.
We don’t need to pretend that the exact opposite of “zog” is true just to prove the nazi’s wrong. We cant ignore Israel’s own agency here. The contradiction of believing their own ethnic supremacy while being wholly dependent on the US is part of the Israeli psychosis. It has driven them to control as much of US politics as possible. First as a matter of survival, then as a matter of pride. We can’t pretend that individual US political and media figures aren’t controlled by the Israel lobby just because the US as a whole controls Israel.
Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus
You can’t be a “rogue state” yet be “entirely controlled”. That would be a puppet state. They could be controlled but aren’t. The leash is almost always slack. Also the leash isn’t the " American intelligence apparatus", its the federal budget.
Edit: Your title is flaming bullshit, like WTF? Israel absolutely does control many US politicians. Who the fuck is Ritchie Torres then? Jamal Bowman and Cory Bush just disappeared on their own.
as pertaining to your edit, ted cruz literally said he’s in american politics to be israel’s biggest supporter lol. 100% in it for the israeli dollars, not at all for texans. so yeah, i don’t know about this post. i don’t like antisemitism. i think it’s gross and should be bannable. i’m not sure i have EVER seen anyone being antisemitic on hexbear. even once.
The mod teams reeks of UK labor ideas of antisemitism and is being absurdly reductionist.
Also the same BS peddled by Antideutsche and soft antideutsche in Die Linke.
Is there some post or user that’s causing these posts? I’ve not really seen a lot of posts saying the us is controlled by israel
The modlog usually has the answer in this sort of situation
That post is absolutely not peddling in zog conspiracies. AIPAC is the most powerful foreign lobby in the US. The mods are getting baited into being hasbara reactionaries again. Just like the whole
fiasco.There was a thread on lemmygrad too (removed for the same reason) and in it (if I recall correctly) it was very clear that OP was not talking about “ZOG” (OP posted further screenshots from the same conversation). Big L for the mods on this one, I think.
AIPAC being the most powerful foreign lobby does not translate to “AIPAC controls all but three people in Congress”. Israel openly controls some US politicians and more quietly controls many others, but it’s indefensible to characterize it as just having the government in its hand.
That’s a fair assessment (which I agree with), but it’s insufficient to accuse the OP of being a neo nazi imo. It’s sloppy wording. OP posted further screenshots in another thread that IMO indicate this had nothing to do with “ZOG” conspiracies.
I didn’t call anyone a neo-nazi, but if someone believes that the actual global hegemon is a puppet of Israel, they are doing ZOG stuff whether they use the word or not.
Not you, the mod log. Agreed, I just don’t think that’s what the OP was actually claiming, based on the later comment I linked. I might be wrong, though. I don’t think the removal of the post is that bad (your interpretation is fair and a good reason to remove), it’s this meta post in response to it that’s a bigger problem.
Sorry for being obtuse. Looking at the screenshots in the comment you link, I’m struggling to get a coherent argument out of it because the “American settlers” comment just sort of confuses the point about who is doing what and why, even if it’s of course true that lots of AIPAC people are American-Israeli settlers.
I (USA) bought a dog(Israel) specifically for fighting the neighbours’ dog(all Muslims), I put it on a leash(literal money and weapons) the length of my block(the world) and now it’s biting everyone(everyone). Somehow this means my dog now owns me.
Have you never seen somebody walk a dog that they couldn’t control? The dog gets an idea in its head and pulls its owner who can’t pull back the leash? Not saying your analogy doesn’t hold… more like it’s too accurate lol
The usa didnt really create israhell, helped massively yes, but it was more the UK that did it by allowing zionists settlers to start organizing in Palestine.
Well, the dog can sometime nip/bark/bite back if really displeased (idk how else to comment on the ability of Israel to threaten the US with nukes if it fails to react positively enough, and the ability of Israel to act in the short term in ways that the US has to stop it from hurting themselves and the owner)
The dog however, will be abandoned or euthanized if it does that too often
Sure, so it’s more complex than either simplification. I agree. The limits are set by the overarching empire, but working within those limits, and even shifting those limits through shifting the context, are still possible by the vassal
