I’m starting to think Israel aren’t the good guys…
They are the evil they claim to be fighting
Israel is a terrorist state.
Regardless of what your opinions on Palestine might be, Israel really isn’t beating the allegations right now.
I remember what I learned in school about this, it was described as a territory dispute between two equal belligerents. Maybe that was true 30 years ago, I don’t know, but it really doesn’t describe what’s going on right now.
The war is over. Israel won, Palestine barely even exists anymore. This is the part where you’re supposed to facilitate aid and win over the losers to your side. dafuq flavor of genocide you dune Israel?
of course, nobody who needs to read this will ever see it. I’m just upset that this kind of thing can even happen in current year.
Of course the second, I’m looking at current events like it’s still 2015. not sure why I’m doing that, but fuck does current events make me miss 2015.
Israel is evil
Wow, Israel really is the only democracy in the Middle East!
Israel to Nazis: When I left you I was but the learner now I am the master.
For those of you doubting the claims for lack of evidence, stating that you’ll “wait for the facts” or evidence before allowing yourslf to be outraged—
Where is your outrage for the countless other people who were there who personally testified to being beaten, abused, and paraded around like trophies?
There are already multiple interviews with Chris Smalls, a black American labor organizer, who directly confirmed that he had been beaten, choked, packed like a sardine into a small cell, sleep deprived, strip searched, and completely brutalized by the Israeli navy and prison system.
Ask yourself—why does this need to have happened to the appropriately aged, white, European female on a 4k, live streamed or recorded feed with corroborating testimony by the Israelis and the national newspapers of the country of origin of the supposed victim—why is that the bar you’ve set for credulity?
What does that say about you or your reaction to the situation?
Wake. Up.
Fuck the details, fuck the squabbling over what constitutes “roughness” versus physical assault. Fuck the inclination to want to hear “the other side” of the story. Things are going horribly wrong in Israel/Palestine—in a place that we’ve all been told over and over is supposed to be demonstrably above reproach. If even half these claims are true—if even a single one of them is true—what GOOD is it preserving the supposed beacon of democracy in the middle east when they treat foreigners this way?
Even if you think these activists are mentally unwell, or menaces, or being performative, or just doing this for “selfies”—so what? We all know these activists are obviously not terrorists and at least some of them genuinely believe what they are doing. None of this justifies their treatment. Nothing justifies the richest and proudest countries on earth—however much you might agree with that claim—what GOOD is that if our prisons condemn people to absolute squalor and abandonment to the whims of their guards?
HOW is this any different from the indignity camps? These peoples possessions were seized as trophies , their clothes taken, their bodies crammed together like chattel. Do there need to be ovens for there to be discernable lines? Must you feel the radiant heat on your own brows before you’ll indulge the sensation that something isn’t right here?
Wake. Up.
Israel is a rogue terrorist state.
The most expected outcome of the expedition.
Exactly the kind of thing Israel would do. Very consistent and predictable of them.
While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.
It is well known by most in Israel that the country simply cannot function in isolation. It will lead to collapse. In this, they are giving the flotilla far more power to eventually overthrow the ruling regime.
They just assume Uncle Sam will bail them out, no matter what. They are not wrong, much to the frustration of a large portion of the US population.
The Americans are not the reliable partner they used to be.
Reliable enough, unfortunately.
I actually don’t think that’s true. One of the rare bright spots in Trump’s generally unbroken record of catastrophe is that he is so unpredictable, and generally gives so little of a shit what happens to anyone outside himself, that the chances of Israel suffering some kind of great consequence and the US not bailing them out as we always do are greatly increased right now I think.
Also, yes, I think this is possibly the greatest fuckup Israel could possibly have committed right now. It may be what finally turns the tide against them, after so many decades of nothing. Outside of literally nuking Gaza or Iran or something, I honestly can’t think of anything worse for them than physically brutalizing a universally popular Western media personality for literally no reason at all.
Problem is, she’s not popular with the type of people who vote for Trump. His demographic would take Israel’s side on this one.
I wasn’t really thinking of them as part of “the Western world” tbh. I do understand that there’s a loud contingent for whom she’s just a stupid loudmouth FEMALE, maybe that is a fly in the ointment of my argument. I do think it’ll still have a pretty significant impact.
TBF, if most of the Western world was not either tacitly or loudly supporting imperialism and having violence as virtue we wouldn’t be in such a mess. Israel is a Franco-British creation nurtured by the USA, their first-born…
There’s no assumption: it’s a known fact.
Thats on borrowed time. Money to isreal is one of the only issues left and right agree with. Someone is going to take advantage of that eventually and isrela is gonna get disconnected from the US teet
The
leftDemocrats and the right.Politics are left, right, and whatever the fuck Democrats are doing.
The
leftDemocrats and the rest of the right.
I know you are probably American, so am I.
We need to stop calling the Democrats the “left” party. They’re not.
Isn’t it relative though? They’re left of the Republicans so they are the left most choice Americans have.
No because left means anti-capitalist. The Democratic Party is not anti-capitalist. Therefore, the Democratic Party is not a left party.
However, they are a neoliberal party. Which, when compared to the Republican Party’s existence as a fascist party, does certainly make the Democrats preferable. But just because they are preferable does not mean they are left
Uncle Sam has Congestive Heart Failure. Their position is tenuous to be generous.
If only it were that simple. The US still has an insanely powerful military. Historically a nation in decline, with an unpredictable leader, and a strong military is not very good for the world
Rapidly shrinking and disabling that military. None of it matters though. We picked a doomsday, AI weapons.
They have done worse to other protestors and faced zero accountability:
They’ve deliberately attacked the American Navy before and nothing came of it.
For those who don’t know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
I don’t know if it was ever shown to be deliberate, but they sure didn’t exercise due care in identifying their targets.
And tried to assassinate a US Ambassador:
Insane. If this were any other country we’d glass the entire continent, but for a bunch of worthless nazis? We bend over backwards to help them even more. Infuriating.
Yeah, why would any major players care? Did they ever care for activists?
There are reports from American doctors who worked in Gaza of Palestinian babies being regularly shot in the head.
That was reported during the Biden administration.
Israel is murdering babies, and it hasn’t affected their support. Why would this matter?
Palestinian babies
Plenty of people in The WestR don’t consider them worthy of empathy, but a white woman of small stature who first became famous as a child might be a different story. We need a mass worldwide cultural shift to identifying all humans as part of the in group or we aren’t going to make it through this century.
I should clarify what I mean a bit.
I’m not saying that brutalizing Greta Thunberg is the straw that is going to break the camel’s back. I’m saying that it’s an escalation of a pattern of behavior that I think is very likely leading toward a collapse of the zionist project at some point in the next decade.
The testimony of those doctors is absolutely part of the same pattern of behavior. And while a lot of folks have looked at the continuing genocide and concluded that clearly, nothing has mattered and nothing will, I believe it has, and it will.
It’s hard to describe succinctly, but Israel today is far, far, FAR weaker than Israel 5 years ago. There is an inertia that lets them feign invincibility, but the country is truly in times without precedent. The longest war since its establishment was 118 days in '82. So much of the assumptions on which Israel relies – constant readiness, bipartisan US support, the total support of Europe, constant Jewish immigration, a strong labor force, a booming tourism industry – is in shambles. Internal divisions are rending their society apart. Their economy, international influence, and social institutions are in crisis.
In this context, this continued loss of an ability or willingness to be discrete in their atrocities really does bolster my conviction that in the next five years the country is going to collapse.
Unlike many, I don’t say this lightly or with glee. I just say it because it’s what I foresee.
While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.
You’d be correct most of the time, but this is Israel we are talking about. They know there won’t be any consequences because claiming they did something wrong must mean you’re a nazi, and even if you get over that, daddy USA is there to protect them anyway.
Israel could livestream a soldier killing Greta and they would face no consequences whatsoever.
They’ve gone so far over every red line that it literally doesn’t matter anymore at this point. They’re literally destroying an entire population - genocide - in full view of the world. What is some maltreatment of an activist in the face of all that? If indiscriminately bombing preschools and blowing up children with drones doesn’t manage to do it, what will?
Remember when Elon Musk did a nazi salute on the world stage for all to see? Remember how we were trying to rationalize what the hell he was thinking? The simplest answer is that nazis at some point just can’t help themselves and they end up saluting because they love doing it, they just need to show people who they are.
Same logic I think applies here. Yes it is self-defeating, yes, it is stupid, and yes, it is gratuitous and dangerous. But these people working Ben Gvir’s prisons? This is who they are. It’s horrifically simple. The people working the Israeli prison system are low level functionaries of apartheid. These are not people who think in terms of strategy etc. If they had the capacity to think like that they wouldn’t be there. It’s as simple as that.
/Edit: typos
With some of the politicians in power these days, it will be pushed as finally putting an end to her climate lies or some other bullshit culture war topic.
I don’t think any law or any order is actually a thing anymore.
If trying to exterminate a whole population did not do anything, I doubt abusing Thunberg will change things
Genuienly, how is it self destructive?
Is this the red line that’s going to result in…
… anything negative happening to Israel?
Probably not, no.
What, is somebody go to war with Israel and the US over Greta, not hundreds of thousands being starved shot blown up and lit on fire?
I answered this in reply to another comment at greater length, but I’m describing this as a pattern of behavior that I think has already set Israel on a course for collapse in several years.
fair enough, I’m just pissed and being a bit catty.
=[
It is intentional. They want to flaunt their power. Look at what we can do and nobody will stop us.
It’s not. Nothing will change, the west will keep supporting israel while pretending not to
Supremacists gonna supremacist.
There’s also a considerable portion of the world who hates Greta and is probably cheering them on. The first news story I saw pop up about Greta being kidnapped said Israel was doing the world a favour…
There are also many like us who don’t know who she is.
You make a good point. I think sadly it will not rise to the point of actual effect. It will inflame people who support her, and those folks are likely already inflamed over Gaza. Many others don’t give a shit about her or actively hate her, and they will either gloss over this or say “that’s what you get” or even “good.”
My own mother, who is a feminist and wildlife advocate, loves to repost FB memes about her being an unrealistic virtue signalling twat who perfoms a low-carbon image while still not living up to the humble standards of the elbow-grease-powered older generations. It’s sad. Greta is incredibly polarizing, and some people just hate her for being young and idealistic.
On the whole I don’t see this affecting anything. We live in an era of mutually exclusive mental models of reality and they can be incredibly well insulated.
deleted by creator
We also have no evidence any of this happened. It is easy to make propaganda when we want to believe it.
The beating and flag kissing is sourced to another captive, and might be exaggerated, but her general mistreatment was reported by Swedish diplomats after speaking to her. It’s pretty credible, imo.
Do we have any sources that aren’t biased toward making her treatment look bad?
Respectfully:
Are you genuinely interested in exercising neutral skepticism? Or are you just arguing on the Internet against claims that run counter to your preferences for what you’d like to be true?
(Be honest.)
neutral skepticism?
Not OP but yes.
But it really doesn’t matter. All we’ll get from this incident is word-of-mouth only.
Those nazis are brazen but not stupid, they didn’t film it.I sincerely believe that the world is a lot less extreme than what social media is telling us. Exceptions, yes, but those are exceptions. Most of the discussion that takes place anymore is driven by sociologically hacking us, done by interested parties to drive division and distrust. It happens on all sides. That doesn’t mean you should drop your support for peaceful protest, aid delivery, etc., but it does mean we should be aware of propaganda and manipulation that confirms our own biases. The effect of the rush to extremes is that we then create extreme situations. The world is getting uglier and uglier, largely driven by this problem.
Does this cut both ways? Because I agree with what you: we should not reflexively believe sensationalist claims because they reinforce our preferred view of the world.
But under the exact same logic, we also should avoid dismissing sensationalist claims because they contradict our preferred view of the world.
Being aware of the manipulation you mentioned, and the fact that forces are trying to manipulate you in both directions on this issue… do you have any credible reason to dismiss testimony by Greta Thunberg to a Swedish diplomat regarding the treatment she experienced?
It is also probably not true. Especially if one consider what you pointed out
The article attributes it’s claims to credible sources. Do you have evidence to the contrary, or just believe what suits you?
Israel has apparently said this in response to the situation:
I don’t see how that’s consistent with them murdering civilians in Gaza.
Because they don’t see civilians in Gaza as people.
They literally call Palestinians (not Hamas, Palestinians) “human animals” and “vermin”, just like the NAZIs used to literally say that Jews and Roma were “subhuman” and “vermin”.
Let’s be honest, they don’t really see non Jews as people either. Zionist ideology is based on Jewish supremacy. They see Christian evangelical Americans as useful idiots. Everyone else is beneath them.
Religion is an excuse for violence. Prove me wrong.
Religion is just another excuse for violence.
The NAZIs put the Roma People in the same category as Jews - so, to be exterminated as an ethnicity (“curiously” there are no Oscar Winning films about the plight of the Roma People, nor has Germany tried to make amends with them) - and yet they tend to be Christians, same as the NAZIs.
Ethno-Fascists regimes are dominated by Psychopaths and Sociopaths, and these people don’t care about Religion beyond it’s immense utility as a tool to manipulate other people.
Ironically, Zionism is an ideology founded by atheist Jews
Maybe religions are an excuse for trying to achieve certain political goals. E.g. a Christian in the USA might say “we have to ban abortion because God says abortion is wrong”. And a settler Jew in Israel might say “we have to occupy the West Bank because God says that land belongs to Jews”. And a conservative Muslim might say “women should not be allowed to drive because God says so”.
Everything else is just busywork, but It’s always been about control and violence.
Always has been.
She’s still a little kid. They made her suffer.
I think that’s needlessly infantilizing her. She’s 22. She’s not a “little kid”. I think she’s old enough for her opinions to carry weight, so how is she a “little kid”?
The youth should have their opinions respected too.
I’m not going to take political opinions from a 3 year old, which is about what I’m thinking when someone says “little kid”. Teenagers, like she was when she got famous, can have enough context about the world that their opinions, particularly about things like sustainability, equality, etc, are valid.
I mean, I feel you, I remember aggroing over verbiage like that when I was younger, but as I am now approaching my upper 30s, I find myself referring to basically 25 yos and under as ‘kids’, its not necesarrily always meant in a demeaning, infantilzing way, can be meant more in the sense of…
… ‘has their whole life ahead of them still, it shouldn’t be marred or maimed or traumatized this early’ /
/ ‘they are adults technically yes, but they have far less experience than most other adults’ /
/ ‘they are too young to be beset by such cruelty and hardship, there should be other adults being better adults such that these awful things do not happen.’
I guess what I am trying to say is it becomes a kind of genuine, broad protective connotation, not trying to be belittling, moreso a lament that the world has failed.
Maybe call it a bungled attempt at intergenerational solidarity.
The thing is, she wasn’t just called a kid, but a “little kid”.
Sure, I’d call early 20s kids too. Hell, I’m a kid, I’m only turning 30 this year. But I wouldn’t call someone a “little kid” once they hit their teenage years. The “little” is what makes the difference in tone. Could’ve said “she’s just a kid” and it would’ve been a believable attempt at intergenerational solidarity.
Keep in mind that we’re talking about a translation here. The phrase quoted might not have the same connotations in Turkish as it does in English.
Part of the job of a translator is to get those details right.
Oh shit I didn’t ever clock that, yeah, yeah this kind of slight difference in phrasing between acceptable and unnaceptable stuff gets a million times more confusing when you are literally moving between languages.
Great example of that: Why are there so many different Bible translations and why do so many people argue about which one is better?
I absolutely think of 22 as a little kid, but I was there when the last Woolly Mammoth died, so it’s somewhat relative.
Idk, to me “little kid” means “not in school yet”. It’s the “little” that makes the difference, compared to just calling someone a kid or kiddo.
I’m with you. Little kids are like infants and toddlers and shit. Not a 22 year old adult woman.
Well someone who is above 40 will probably think of her as a little kid while someone who 28 for example will probably think that they are close in age. Though this doesn’t matter no one deserves to be treated like this regardless of age.
I’m 46. Nobody over the age of 12 is is a “little” kid to me. I can’t imagine ever calling a legal adult a little kid.
Depends on how old the person saying that. I’m only in my late 30’s and anyone in their early 20’s does feel like a kid. Yes, 22 is an adult, but you’ve barely just scratched the surface of life experiences.
I agree. There are also a lot of older people on the flotilla and Greta’s age and mannerism could easily lead someone to refer to her in this framing. There are probably people on those boats who have grandkids her age and absolutely have kids her age or older.
Exactly! They’re not infantilizing her, they’re just describing her as they see her: as still basically a kid with one foot into adulthood.
I feel like it’s mostly younger people disagreeing tbh. No one older seriously looks back on their young adulthood and goes “yup, I had everything figured out then! That was totally my peak!”…well, unless your Al Bundy obsessing over high school football games.
Thing is, the older people get, the more selfish they seem to get too. The entire world burning down in 10 years doesn’t matter if you’re 98. So more life experience isn’t automatically more credible.
That’s a bullshit generalization, or “stereotype”. Jane Goodall just died at a ripe old age and she was a saint. You’re not debating, just throwing bullshit assumptions out and acting like you just wrote a thesis paper on experience.
There’s always exceptions.
That doesn’t change this:
And in general, if you look at politicians, the few who actually fight for the future are on the younger side (think AOC, Mamdani, etc). Yes, obviously there are exceptions. Bernie Sanders being a huge one.
Cool, now let’s talk about the overwhelming majority of today’s youth leaning right. If young people are so much smarter why are so many of them falling into that trap?
Oh shit, it’s almost like making generalizations leads to you spouting bullshit out of context. I can just as easily paint today’s youth as absolute morons.
But you’re so ready to be like “old people dumb and evil” that you forget this is all about calling Greta " a child". You know, like your grandma might do to your adult self because, from her perspective, you still are.
Go touch some grass you fucking loser. We’re talking about someone being abused and you’re nitpicking over the definition of “child”. You’ve missed the mark so far you’re not even in the same stadium.
I’m talking natural leanings vs all the young people currently being exposed to right wing propaganda which is different.
There’s a common saying “you’ll grow out of liberalism” among older conservatives.
Oh, you have a SAYING?!? Omg, another vague generalization? Holy shit, how have we as a species survived for so long without your wisdom, Plato??? You need to tell the masses!
Hey everyone, this guy has boiled down all of politics to a few simple sayings! We’ve found the Messiah!
Fucking dumbass 😑
Again, this is about someone older referring to a young person as “still a child”. That’s it, you fucking tool. How daft are you?
Selfish people dedicate their lives to accumulating wealth and wealthy people tend to live longer.
I feel that anyone in their 30s is a child.
You’ve only had 15 years at being an adult what would you know
So perspective does matter when understanding utterings in their context!
Yes, I am still young and there’s much to learn still. Just there’s EVEN MORE OF THAT for younger people. It’s called perspective.
deleted by creator
There’s 150 comments in this one post, having a couple about this one thing - which I also thought was off - is fine and good.
It’s ok for people to point out bad things in something you agree with overall.
I’m sorry, I just think that the zionist actions are bad by default but news articles shouldn’t minimize the people that defy them?
That’s fair. And I completely agree with you, in general
But, you knew there was a but coming, it was the person who saw the beating that actually said she is a kid. And, in this case at least it seems, that the media was just quoting them.
Plus, in my view, the sentence of “Israeli terrorists beat a kid” is worse than “Israeli terrorists beat an adult”.
So, to me, it looked like you were nitpicking and trying to minimise their actions by pointing out Greta isn’t a child. It seems I got that bit wrong and I apologise.Fair, I can see how we might have misunderstood each other
What do you mean it’s not 2015??? /s
Fuck israehell ! Free Palestine 🕊
Idk why this is treated as though its so inconceivable. Greta is hated by conservatives around the world. Most countries have already condemned Israel. They only care what Trump’s regime thinks. Their prisons are notorious centers of physical emotional and sexual torture. This is relatively mild treatment in comparison to many of the accounts I’ve read. It’s still awful, but if they were going to invent a story about how vile the Israeli prison guards were, this wouldnt be noteworthy in any way. Barely even scratches the surface of the things that happen in those prisons.
English really needs to stop calling the right wing “conservatives”. We don’t call them that in other languages, and they literally don’t try to conserve things, but instead always seek to destroy.
I prefer “reactionary,” because it accurately describes their political philosophy and tactics.
Also, it really pisses them off.
Not all the right wing is conservative of course and you are right about it, but you are wrong about the meaning of conservative, being a conservative mean those who in politics uphold the value of tradition, oppose any progressive ideology, and aim to preserve traditional social and political structures
At their core, Conservatives are cowards, afraid of EVERYTHING: Democrats, Liberals, Minorities, other religions, other countries, poor people, women, women’s private parts, gays, and anyone else who wants society to improve their lives.
Conservatives are fully satisfied with the way things are, and are terrified that any changes in society would be at the expense of the superior situation that they have created for themselves over centuries.
Their overwhelming need for control over all else has allowed corruption in every form to take root, and they feel far less need to end that, than their need to punish their perceived enemies.
So the result is the MAGA Party, whose primary function is to support the concepts of greed, treason, racism, corruption, incompetence, ignorance, intolerance, and pedophilia.
This is a terribly written comment… There is a better way to say what you’re trying to say. I think. I’m not 100% on what your point really is.
Their point is right there taking up half the comment:
being a conservative mean those who in politics uphold the value of tradition, oppose any progressive ideology, and aim to preserve traditional social and political structures
In other words, they’re “conserving” traditional values.
However this isn’t really true, and @Lumisal@lemmy.world is correct that this isn’t really what they’re doing. It’s how they think they’re behaving, but they have a distorted view on history and see it through rose tinted glasses, often trying not to conserve but to “restore” society to some half-cocked version that never really existed.
Absolutely true, but all of that is just the marching orders from the leadership to keep the rubes occupied and distracted, while they fulfill whatever personal agendas they have, mostly stealing as much as possible, but also committing treason, getting their rocks off abusing people, and kissing their Fuhrer’s stinky ass.
Presumably because anyone with half a brain would realize that she should have gotten a far more diplomatic treatment regardless of how much of a genocidal asshole they were. The fact that she is getting treated this way shows how far Israel has devolved to and how much more people people should be protesting any interaction with the country.
Unfortunately, it isn’t the only Middle East country who behaves like shit, whom people in other countries have protested, and whom their governments don’t care. But at least the fiction of what Israel was trying to project itself as has toppled considerably.
Of course she deserved better treatment. So did Sophie Scholl. It’s just very odd to act like this is not a believable thing that Israel, famed mass murderers of children, would do.
Israel hasn’t devolved, the state was founded on acts of colonialist genocide. This is what the state of Israel has always been.
At the same time, she is also a public figure. If they had treated her well, they would have less of a leg to stand on. Whereas mistreating her just raises the question that if they are treating a relatively known public figure in that way, what happens to the less-known people, who don’t have as much of a platform to speak out on.
And Greta isn’t the only person claiming that they did awful, abusive, hateful things. Chris Smalls got it, too.
Chris Smalls gave a chilling interview with Amy Goodman where he basically said that the Israelis treated him worse than he’s been treated in his entire life as a black man in America. That’s saying a lot.
The full interview.
They abused her less than some other people so it is ok. What kind of dumb logic is that?
Where did i say it was okay? It is abhorrent. I said that if they were going to invent a story about her graphic torture, this abuse is comparatively minor compared with other accounts from Israeli prisons.
