Basic answer: Bi likes two and maybe more, where Pan explicitly likes any, which you use just show’s your starting point.
Real answer: Those who resonate with using Bi as a label likely started or wants to start on a common level of understanding of LGBT, whereas people who resonate with Pan start deep into LGBT discourse.
True answer: It’s which flag you like better.
True answer: It’s which flag you like better
My bi ass feels called out by this, so I’m going to say that makes you based
I spent a while trying to find a simple answer to this. I think it’s most easily interpreted as:
Bi: Implies you like both of the genders. No real preference.
Pan: implies you recognize there is a range of masculinity and femininity, and of course cis and trans, and thus you are attracted to a range of genders. Not explicitly feminine or masculine, but likes anyone on the spectrum of genders.
bisexuality isn’t inherently transphobic!
not saying you’re necessarily implying that, but it’s a general stereotype which, while it can be true on an individual level, certainly isn’t when taken as a whole
here’s the bisexual manifesto, also, since it goes hard: https://bitheway.carrd.co/#manifesto
Oooh I had not seen that. With this in mind, I have to just assume that pan came about not knowing that bi had already by definition not limited to the two typical genders.
I had not thought bi to be transphobic, nor that bisexuals actually fit into interest in just two separate genders. I just thought it was perhaps an outdated term that sounds that way. Thank you for the clarification!
There really needs to be more discussion on this stuff. I only recently discovered the terms gynosexual and androsexual. Those could have been super useful when I was younger.
I’ve heard some people describe pansexuality as being attraction without regard to gender. This makes intuitive sense to me, speaking as a bisexual whose attraction to different genders feels different qualitatively
Isn’t that omni? I’m attracted to all people but like you the differences hits different so omni feels like a better fit than pan, but I still call myself pan or bi because nobody knows what the hell omni is.
Is there a label that includes everyone except golfers? Asking for a friend.
Perhaps. Being neither pansexual nor omnisexual, I don’t feel especially well equipped to comment on this, but I get the sense that the semantic relationship between “pansexual” and “omnisexual” is probably similar to the relationship between bisexuality and pansexuality. That is to say, effectively being synonyms, except for subtle distinctions that can contextually matter to the people who identify as those things. So like, I would say that “bisexual ≈ pansexual” and “pansexual ≈ omnisexual”. Like if I were to think of this in terms of the evolutionary relationships between words, it feels like the concepts of pansexuality and omnisexuality are more closely related than omnisexuality and bisexuality.
Like I say though, I don’t have a good personal sense of what the distinction between pan and omni is — though I’m realising that this may be an opportunity to develop my understanding. Are you able to articulate what it is about “omnisexual” that resonates with you more than “pansexual”? My personal experience with labels is that finding a more specific one that feels like it fits better is that the better label hits more of the right notes than the previous label — so what I’m asking is what notes does omnisexual hit that pansexual doesn’t (or what notes does “pansexual” hit that don’t feel right for you?).
To give an example of what I mean about things fitting better, I find that whilst I still readily identify as bisexual, I find that “queer” better captures my vibe nowadays, because it gets at the fact that my preferred mode of relationships is actively anti-heteronormative (even when in a straight-passing relationship)
I think the main problem here is that even people within the community confuse “sex” with “gender”.
Sex is a biological concept. According to biology, mammals have two sexes. Period.
Gender is a social/cultural/psychological concept. There’s a whole spectrum of genders.
Wouldn’t that mean that “bisexual” is someone attracted to the physical/biological attributes of of both sexes, while “pansexual” is someone attracted to the range of social/cultural/psychological attributes on the gender spectrum?
This is somewhat of a tangent to your point, but this is a really cool article that looks over how human biological sex is more complex than most realise: https://scatter.wordpress.com/2022/01/30/sex-as-a-social-construct/
I like this approach because it is quite disruptive to the framework that you describe, wherein sex and gender can be simplified by understanding them as completely separate, and sex framed as a simple binary. To be clear, this isn’t me saying you’re wrong; I like the phrase “all models are wrong, some are useful”. I also think that the model you describe is also one that I sometimes find useful in talking about this stuff, even if I think it’s an oversimplification. I like things that disrupt this simplicity because I’m a big nerd who also happens to be a scientist in a different side of the life sciences — I used to think of science as something we could apply to the world to get the unruly chaos of life to obey our understanding. Increasingly, I think that we could do with being a bit more humble and realising how many of the things we think we’ve solved actually have hidden layers of complexity. I think this is very cool and exciting, because I am a massive nerd.
I think you’re missing nuance with ‘mammals have two sexes. Period’ - there’s a range of intersex possibilities, chromosomes that don’t match organs, chromosomes that aren’t xx or xy (e.g xxy), genetic chimeras with more than one set of sex chromosomes. What you mean is ‘usually’
One is sexually attracted to bicycles and the other one is in to cookware. I can’t remember which is which.
Bisexuals are attracted to cookware (think “biscuits”), and pansexuals are attracted to bicycles (think “panniers”).
Is that why the gay girl in my circle of friends keeps announcing that she got a new toaster oven?
No, she’s just trying to flirt with one of you.
I’m pan, and I think of it like this:
Pan means you’re attracted to people regardless of their gender. Bi means you’re attracted to more than one gender.
No hate though, if anyone else defines them differently. That’s just how I see it.
Yea, pan here, too. That’s how I always understood it. Gets a bit more nuanced though, when you include omnisexuality.
Omnisexuality??? Ok, I accept that as Gen X I’m old. I grew up stating I was Bi because that’s the term we had at the time. Now I still say Bi, but clarify “or really Pan as the kids call it nowadays because I believe all the toys in toy box are fun to play with and I value the person (and personality) over plumbing”. Now what is Omni?
Omni people don’t like mixing Greek and Latin.
Or they really hate flutes
Generally, it’s described as:
Bi: attraction to more than one gender
Pan: attraction regardless of gender
Omni: attraction to all gendersThe difference between pan and omni is small and they’re often used synonymously. Most people I know, that fall into this category, identify as either bi or pan. Omni is exceedingly rare but it’s also not that new. I remember it already being an established thing when I first read about it almost a decade ago.
Edit: formatting
That seems to be making a distinction just to make a distinction. Pan and omni mean the same thing: all. It just sounds like someone wanted to feel more special than the people calling themselves pan so created a new word that means the exact same thing.
If you’re attracted to someone regardless of gender then you’re attracted to all genders. Attraction doesn’t mean you always like them, it means you have a lustful desire to them. Both pan and poly can feel that for anyone, but neither feels it for everyone obviously. Unless I’m getting something wrong here, they’re the same thing with the meaning you gave and the words even mean the same thing.
Yea, it’s obviously not about who you get the hots for, at that point. In both cases, everyone’s on the menu.
The commonly used distinction is, that pan is often described as „gender-blind“, meaning, gender has no role in attraction. A guy is hot, because he’s hot, not because he’s a guy, while this can be very much the case with omni.But yes, it’s a very small distinction. It doesn’t make enough of a difference for most people. There’s a reason very few people identify as omni. But let them have their fun, if that small distinction matters to them. There’s no reason to police labels.
Sure, I’m not going to police it. If someone wants to call themselves omni I’m not going to tell them they’re wrong. They’re free to do whatever they want. I’m just saying it does seem to make sense to have a different term, beside just having fun.
For example though, I’m a straight man, but I’m still attracted to some more masculine appearing women. I’m just attracted to who I’m attracted to. There doesn’t need to be an additional term for straight people who can be attracted to both masculine and feminine appearing people of the opposite sex. That’d be absurd, and I’m sure the omni people would agree.
Thats what it sounds like “omni” is trying to do. You’re attracted to anyone, regardless of gender, which is pan. You just have a preference for particular gendered appearances. That’s still pan, but you have preferences for appearances, like everyone else. We don’t need a word for every single persons preferences or we wouldn’t be able to have a conversation about it. We don’t need a word for people attracted to people with tattoos, for example.
There doesn’t need to be an additional term for straight people who can be attracted to both masculine and feminine appearing people of the opposite sex.
No, the word for that is straight. But there are certainly words for people who are attracted to masculinity or femininity, regardless of gender. And of course there’s having a type. But that’s got nothing to do with sexuality. Pan folks can have types, too.
You’re attracted to anyone, regardless of gender, which is pan.
Well no. Omnisexuality is explicitly not regardless of gender. The gender is being regarded. That’s the whole point of the distinction. It’s just that all of them are being regarded. That has nothing to do with expression, type or appearance. The attraction to different genders might just be different, before type even plays a role.
At least, that’s how I understand it. I’m pan. I barely get how one can care about gender at all. I cannot speak out of experience here, only from what I’ve been told. I get omnisexuality about as little as I get exclusively gay/straight people. This feels a bit like a blind person explaining green to someone who can’t see colours.
So what would be attraction to a specific band of aesthetic characteristics independent of sex or gender be?
Depends on the band. There are words for only attracted to fem guys and women, or masc women and men, but i forget them. Im sure someones made a word for other bands too
Androsexuality and gynosexuality. Honestly I would like those even if I wasn’t bi, much clearer than heterosexual/homosexual. Also they work better with nonbinary people
I cannot answer you that but there are certainly labels that describe specific cases of that.
bisexual.py:def is_sexually_attracted_to(self, other): return other.gender in self.preferred_genderpansexual.py:def is_sexually_attracted_to(self, other): # TODO: factors based on other traits TBI return TrueClose enough?
Accurate.
I think of it like this: bi is attraction to masc men and fem women.
Pan is attraction to all configurations of gender, genitals, and presentation.
That definition of bisexuality would exclude 100% of the bisexual people I know, including myself. I don’t think it’s grounded in any sort of reality for bisexual people.
Nah, people like twinks and femboys also more likely to call themselves bi.
yeah, this is how i’ve always seen it
I never thought of that because I never tried to define it. I’m just happy you found something that makes you happy.
Debating identity definitions 😞
Accepting that identities are fluid definitions we made up 😎
Correct! “Whatever floats your boat as long as it’s consensual, just be safe and have fun” should be the only thing we need.
Agreed.
But humans are humans, and a big part of our wiring is forming tribes and excluding people from those tribes. Thus the exponential proliferation of classifications.
Fair point!
Then I’ll adjust my initial statement to: " ‘whatever floats your boat’ should be the way we approach any identity as long as it’s all consensual, be safe and have fun."
Removed by mod
Easy: bisexual people are REALLY into cycling and pansexual people can’t contain their lust for Andean flute music.
From my experience this is honestly as good as any other definition in this thread.
I’m bi because I have all the symptoms, finger guns, awkward puns, can’t sit in chairs properly, require at least three beverages at any given moment etc.
Also, the flag has all my favorite colors.
Also, I could just be old? Lol
To be honest, a person’s gender and/or genitalia are easily the least interesting things about them to me. I tend to feel sexual attraction only after establishing connections with people, which I believe has another name, demisexual. However, throughout my life I have dated men, women, nonbinary folks, folks who had no idea how to define themselves, etc.
My current partner is a man, but if he came to me today and told me he was trans and wanted to start living as a woman, I wouldn’t bat an eyelash. If he wanted to get fake tits but keep his dick, also don’t care. I love him, and “he” is so much more than his body. It makes perfect sense in my head and that’s all that really matters I guess.
I’ve had friends argue with me that “you’re actually pan!” but the word doesn’t personally resonate with me. Anyway, I find most of the discourse around labels slightly reactionary and/or virtue signally, “I’m a true queer/queerer than you!”, type shit. Pick your favorite color flag and go have (consensual) fun!
Bisexuals know what pan means.
I have no interest in participating in freaky alien sex as their 43rd gender partner.
LOOK AT YOURSELF, PANS, THEY DON’T EVEN HAVE SKIN
Bisexuals know what pan means.
(It means bread)
Nervously defends my cookware cabinets.
I suspect in the long ago, there may have been some drama about bi implying only two, and people taking exception to that but we have since moved on after realizing it was a stupid argument. There were far more important things to argue about, like kink at pride.
Yeah, I’m bisexual because I need either a penis or a vagina for sex. I’ve run into others saying that this makes me transphobic, but as an AFAB agender person, I find it deeply disturbing that there’s “progressives” out there who’ll admit they can’t respect me as a person if they don’t want to fuck me.
Yeah you’d think the community would be a little more accepting of people who don’t fit a strict definition, or don’t present a certain way.
But it’s just as judgemental and gatekeepy as every other community. You have to present a certain way or say you’re a certain thing to fit in. It’s very depressing and has made me even more cynical.
Honestly, I find most of the judgemental and gatekeepy tends to come from a handful of people who never grew up. Trauma tends to create a sort of arrested development, and people can mentally get ‘stuck’ at the maturity they were when it happened. Gatekeeping is a form of cope, where they function under the belief that if their criteria is narrow enough, they’ll be safe.
It’s the idea that if you can make a group where everybody is exactly like you, you’ll all get along. It’s flawed logic, because there are always parts of you that you don’t like, and it’s even more aggravating when you see your flaws in others, but it makes sense to me.
For a very long time I would respond to questions about my sexuality with “I don’t like labels”. I wasn’t being glib or evasive, I just didn’t like how diminishing it was to reduce my entire life’s experience and decisions to one word. I tend to interpret the more creative labels people come up with in the same vein. For me, trying to enforce a rigid definition on other people’s self-labelling misses the point entirely.
How about pansexuals who just say bisexual because there is better chance that people will actually know what you’re talking about
(Just in casual conversation with strangers, obviously.)
I honestly think this is the most common scenario. Both people who self-describe as bi and pan will have varying preferences, and I think it’s typically more about audience and communication than any universally definable difference.
This is similar to how a binary bi or pan person who tends to date people of the same sex or gender might self-describe as gay; they’re not creating a binding contract when they do so, rather they’re providing an easily-digestible description of their sexual or romantic character to others.
Hi, that’s me.
Although even “pansexual” is a shortcut. I think my actual sexuality needs hyperbolic geometry to explain.
Ah, a Lobachevskysexual.
I think at this point I’ve seen far more people who identify as pansexual than bisexual.
literally me
yes
In my opinion they mean the same thing. I identify as bi because I like the flag more.
Same. Also, “bi” is only two letters and I’m lazy.
Based take
Not to be confused with getlaidmites and getlaidtights. :)
It’s so funny that the queer community debates this when we could really just ask the average non-queer person to clarify it for us, and you’ll find out that it really just means that we’re confused and actually we’re just gay.
Hey now, that’s not always true! Some of us are confused and just seeking attention.
Bi means someone finds male and female genders attractive (masculine or feminine). They probably aren’t attracted to androgyny or less “traditional” genders (since it becomes pan).
Pan means gender doesn’t matter. Enbies, trans people, and anyone else could be attractive.
In other words, Pan is Bi++
If we aren’t splitting hairs, they are mostly used synonymously, but “pan” is more precise for folks that open to partners regardless of their gender.
Wrong
Is your stalac tight or full of might?
David: “I do drink red wine, but I also drink white wine and I’ve been known to sample the occasional rose and a couple summers back I tried a merlot that used to be a chardonnay which got a bit complicated.”
