The working class to admit their culture was killed by British imperialism years ago and go focus on class but literally every force in the country focuses on the opposite and makes sure people don’t do that so I’m not optimistic at class consciousness
Well, it’ll seem hopeless until it suddenly isn’t, but I’m sure you know that already. The institutions upholding this nonsense will eventually fall under their own weight, but who knows when.
I was also curious about your point about Gen Alpha having “American accents”, because it reminded me of something I heard about Australia. Would you like to expand on that situation and what you think of it? Because for as much dialect leveling as media imports and the capitalist Internet have been responsible for… These are still just little kids you’re talking about, most of them surely younger than 10, and I doubt that American accents really have that much prestige in Ireland that kids will hold onto them into adulthood.
My girlfriend is 20 and doesn’t have a traditional Irish accent. Her accent is extremely Americanized. Most of my friends are Irish and only two of them don’t have extremely Americanized accents. They’re all 20-30.
Quoting The Routledge Handbook of Sociolinguistics Around The World second edition (2024) chapter 41, “Sociolinguistics in Ireland”, written by Raymond Hickey.
The sociolinguistics of modern Irish English
There are major forces active in present-day Irish society which are having an impact on language in the country. Essentially, these can be grouped into two: (i) the influx of large numbers of foreign nationals, who are not native speakers of English and (ii) the influence of English from North America (the United States and, to a lesser extent, Canada) on the English of young urbanites. Non-English speakers in Ireland need to acquire English to participate in professional and social lives in Ireland, in addition they show a degree of sociolinguistic adaptation to the norms and nuances of Irish English in different parts of the island. Corrigan (2020) has investigated this in detail for non-Irish in south-east Ulster. Diskin (2013), Diskin and Regan (2015) as well as the contributions in Regan et al. (2016) are studies of similar situations in Dublin. Investigating the linguistic integration of immigrants to Ireland is an enterprise which yields insights into language accommodation and adjustment, but the idea that the non-native varieties of English in Ireland have had or are having an effect on the English of native Irish is quite mistaken, no research has shown any conclusive evidence of this. External influence from North America is something for which there are concrete linguistic signs. This external influence does not come from Britain as, for historical reasons, adopting features of British English by native Irish is something which is strictly taboo and would trigger ridicule of those who might do this by fellow Irish people. The North American influence is easiest to recognise on the level of words and phrases. Features such as quotative like as in And he was like, ‘let’s go to my place’, the lack of restrictions on augmentative so, as in That’s so not happening these days or the use [sic] you guys as a gender-independent second person plural pronoun as in Are you guys going to the party tonight? are all instances of a clear influence of English from across the Atlantic on Irish English, along with various cases of hyperbolic usage, e.g., awesome, cool, gross, etc. which Irish English now shares with so many varieties of English.
The most subtle influence can be seen on the level of pronunciation in (southern) Irish English. Changes here derive initially from Dublin usage. By ‘usage’ is meant here the speech of non-local Dubliners, those who speak with a recognisably Irish English accent but without the defining features of local Dublin English. This variety has been the basis for ‘supraregional Irish English’ (Hickey, 2013) throughout at least the past century and a half. It is subject to continual change, often determined by generation and gender, and many changes in non-local Dublin English usage of the past 25 years or so have now become part of supraregional Irish English and can be found in the speech of younger individuals around the country who do not have an accent typical of their locality. Examples of such features would be a dark l in syllable codas, e.g., deal [diːɫ], the homophony of the formerly distinct /ɔː/ and /oː/ vowels, e.g., horse [hɔːrs] and hoarse [ho:rs], now both [ho:rs] for younger speakers of supraregional Irish English, or the absence of a voiceless labio-velar approximant [ʍ] leading to homophony in word pairs like which and witch, whale and wail, whet and wet, etc.
Recent trends in Irish English
In the preceding discussion of changes in non-local Dublin English external influence was not favoured as an explanation. With the present set of changes the opposite seems to be the case. The lowering of short front vowels, which is apparent in the recent speech of young non-local females, does not appear to be an internal development within Dublin English but an imported feature from North America (USA possibly along with Canada). From a number of investigations in the past two decades it is known that the vowels of the KIT, DRESS and TRAP vowel set are lowered in Canada (see Clarke et al., 1995; Boberg, 2005, 2012), in California (see Kennedy & Grama, 2012) and increasingly in other parts of the United States and the anglophone world in general, e.g., in South Africa and in Australia. This lowering of vowels would appear to have been adopted in Dublin by young females, as part of what is unconsciously perceived as a cool and trendy way of speaking. The lowering is not identical to that found in North America. In particular the KIT vowel is not lowered appreciably (only in the environment of /r-/, e.g., rid [red]) and the DRESS vowel, when it occurs before nasals as in friend, bend, ten, etc., does not show any noticeable lowering, probably due to the tendency for nasals to raise vowels. The greatest lowering is found for the DRESS vowel in pre-sibilant position, e.g., address, best, fresh, yes, etc. with a realisation near [æ]. Those speakers who have this lowering also have a lowering and retraction of the TRAP vowel to a centralised [a] so that the vowels in the two lexical sets are kept distinct.
Vowel movements are frequently interpreted (when internally motivated) as triggered by shifts in phonological space which lead to a re-alignment of vowel distinctions. For instance, the short front vowel lowering found in Canada is regarded as connected to the reduction of phonological distinctions in the low back region due to the Don~dawn merger in Canadian English (Boberg, 2012, pp. 174–175). The lowering in Dublin English would seem to only concern the DRESS and TRAP vowels; the LOT and STRUT vowels are, as yet, unaffected by this lowering. In addition, Dublin English, and Irish English in general, does not show any signs of a collapse of the distinction between the LOT and THOUGHT vowels (the Don~dawn merger). Exposure in the media to young female speakers with Short Front Vowel Lowering might be responsible. In Ireland, young female broadcasters, weather forecasters and continuity announcers on Irish national radio and television in general show Short Front Vowel Lowering. And it is also true that on local radio channels throughout the country young female broadcasters are now showing this lowering.
But this suggestion would still leave the unanswered question: how did people in the media pick up Short Front Vowel Lowering to begin with? Did some young females speakers go to Canada/USA (California) and pick up the rudiments of Short Front Vowel Lowering there and then plant the seed of this shift back in Dublin with the shift then spreading throughout the city? It is probably too early to say whether Short Front Vowel Lowering will become an established feature of non-local Dublin English and hence of supraregional Irish English. The lowering is not found now (2021) with all young females and it is rare among males. For variation of this kind to become an established instance of language change it would have to apply across the board and occur in the speech of both sexes. Whether this will happen in Dublin remains to be seen.
I guess I’ll see if I can find anything else about the topic; I’m not satisfied. Like I don’t mean to accuse you of lying or anything, I just find it literally unbelievable that Gen Z/Gen Alpha people in Ireland are taking on full GenAm accents en masse, especially in the same cultural context where you say there is so much nationalism and anti-Americanism — it just doesn’t make any sense! Is it a matter of a small and biased sample size? Is it a matter of your own hearing and subjective judgments of how other people talk and your assumptions of why they talk the way they do?
Im not being biased if you ask around its a common sentiment in Dublin. I am far from the first person to make this claim. The fact that the accents of the youth are being Americanized pisses off a lot of old people who complain CONSTANTLY about it.
Also a lot of young white people here use AAVE for some reason
The fact that the accents of the youth are being Americanized pisses off a lot of old people who complain CONSTANTLY about it.
Also a lot of young white people here use AAVE for some reason
This applies to basically all of Europe and the entire Anglosphere, which is why I find it doubtful that Americanization of youth speech in Ireland is considerably more thorough and advanced than Americanization of youth speech in every single other country where the exact same dynamic plays out. Like I wouldn’t question that it’s a common sentiment in Dublin that young people “talk like Yankees”, and I completely believe that old people complain about it, but all that that really shows is attitudes towards how young people talk — not how young people actually talk in fact, nor why young people talk the way they do. So if you can find a recording of a Dubliner who talks like an American, then please send me a link to a video or audio file so I can judge for myself. For that matter I want to know how the people who talk like Americans understand their own speech, do they themselves see it as Americanized?
But this reminds me, actually: I used to think Gilbert O’Sullivan was from the Deep South due to his singing voice in his greatest hits; his musical style probably primed me to hear him that way. He’s 78 years old now and absolutely does not sound Yankee when speaking, only when singing.
News sites are terrible if you want to find good science, but these fluffy articles give a good impression of the phenomenon you’re talking about, right?
Welp, this is anecdotal, defies both explanation and my ability to find papers about it in a pinch, and I doubt you’re willing to do any sort of voice recording and formal analysis, so… I’ll get back to you after I get some stuff off Anna’s Archive.
The working class to admit their culture was killed by British imperialism years ago and go focus on class but literally every force in the country focuses on the opposite and makes sure people don’t do that so I’m not optimistic at class consciousness
Well, it’ll seem hopeless until it suddenly isn’t, but I’m sure you know that already. The institutions upholding this nonsense will eventually fall under their own weight, but who knows when.
I was also curious about your point about Gen Alpha having “American accents”, because it reminded me of something I heard about Australia. Would you like to expand on that situation and what you think of it? Because for as much dialect leveling as media imports and the capitalist Internet have been responsible for… These are still just little kids you’re talking about, most of them surely younger than 10, and I doubt that American accents really have that much prestige in Ireland that kids will hold onto them into adulthood.
My girlfriend is 20 and doesn’t have a traditional Irish accent. Her accent is extremely Americanized. Most of my friends are Irish and only two of them don’t have extremely Americanized accents. They’re all 20-30.
It’s not just little kids
Quoting The Routledge Handbook of Sociolinguistics Around The World second edition (2024) chapter 41, “Sociolinguistics in Ireland”, written by Raymond Hickey.
I guess I’ll see if I can find anything else about the topic; I’m not satisfied. Like I don’t mean to accuse you of lying or anything, I just find it literally unbelievable that Gen Z/Gen Alpha people in Ireland are taking on full GenAm accents en masse, especially in the same cultural context where you say there is so much nationalism and anti-Americanism — it just doesn’t make any sense! Is it a matter of a small and biased sample size? Is it a matter of your own hearing and subjective judgments of how other people talk and your assumptions of why they talk the way they do?
Im not being biased if you ask around its a common sentiment in Dublin. I am far from the first person to make this claim. The fact that the accents of the youth are being Americanized pisses off a lot of old people who complain CONSTANTLY about it.
Also a lot of young white people here use AAVE for some reason
This applies to basically all of Europe and the entire Anglosphere, which is why I find it doubtful that Americanization of youth speech in Ireland is considerably more thorough and advanced than Americanization of youth speech in every single other country where the exact same dynamic plays out. Like I wouldn’t question that it’s a common sentiment in Dublin that young people “talk like Yankees”, and I completely believe that old people complain about it, but all that that really shows is attitudes towards how young people talk — not how young people actually talk in fact, nor why young people talk the way they do. So if you can find a recording of a Dubliner who talks like an American, then please send me a link to a video or audio file so I can judge for myself. For that matter I want to know how the people who talk like Americans understand their own speech, do they themselves see it as Americanized?
But this reminds me, actually: I used to think Gilbert O’Sullivan was from the Deep South due to his singing voice in his greatest hits; his musical style probably primed me to hear him that way. He’s 78 years old now and absolutely does not sound Yankee when speaking, only when singing.
Edit:
News sites are terrible if you want to find good science, but these fluffy articles give a good impression of the phenomenon you’re talking about, right?
Welp, this is anecdotal, defies both explanation and my ability to find papers about it in a pinch, and I doubt you’re willing to do any sort of voice recording and formal analysis, so… I’ll get back to you after I get some stuff off Anna’s Archive.