This defeats the entire purpose of me having android
Like I’m just going to switch to an iPhone now. Not because Apple is any better, but because I have more family with them.
They took away our SD cards, they took away our removable batteries, they took away our headphone jacks. Now they’re taking away side loading apps, and that’s it. I’m done. The death of android.
Removable batteries are coming back, as they become mandatory in the EU in 2027.
Or you can already get one with a Fairphone (which also has SD card slot).
As for the headphone jack, I’m afraid it won’t come back. Bluetooth alternatives are far better these days (I got both, so I know from experience), and good adapters (like Apple one) are barely more than $10.Bluetooth alternatives are far better these days
Disputable.
- they are cable-less, thus need to be charged separately
- they are cable-less, thus it is easier to lose them
- bluetooth implementation is a potential security vulnerability
- transmission by radio will always be less energy efficient than transmission by wire
I liked the whole not having to charge headphones thing more than anything.
I liked being able to accidentally brush up against my headphones or putting them down for a moment without them turning off my music.
i’m a musician, have a trained ear and even with mild tinnitus have yet to see any BT audio transmission that matches the fidelity of cables.
That aspect did pop into my head but I am not qualified to comment as I never use any wireless headsets, nor are my ears trained enough for fully appreciating hi-fi quality.
Missed a few things.
- They are cable-less, thus they use a battery and have a shorter lifespan
- The batteries they use are generally not user replaceable so they turn into e-waste rather quickly
- Due to the reduced bluetooth bandwidth, call quality is crap
- Sound quality is worse than a wired headphone that costs the same
BT 6.1 introduced Randomized RPA (Resolvable Private Address) which should help with some of the security issues. That said I wouldn’t expect to see headphones implementing 6.1 for quite some time. It just came out in May.
I have two devices, one is my phone, and one only plays music. I only ever use my phone as my phone, and my music device as my music device in my car, and both run over Bluetooth.
It is a crapshoot as to which role my car will assign to which device. Sometimes I have to put my phone in airplane mode so that the car won’t try to assign it the media player role in Bluetooth settings. I’m not impressed.
check the Bluetooth settings on your phone. on mine, I can disallow roles that a peripheral could get, like media audio, phone calls, etc
That has a lot more to do with the car itself.
If you ever want to talk about a shit OS…
they are cable-less, thus need to be charged separately
Not a major drawback, IMO.
they are cable-less, thus it is easier to lose them
True, but I haven’t lost any in the something like 6 years I’ve been using them.
bluetooth implementation is a potential security vulnerability
What’s your threat model? Who’s going to be attacking your security via your headphones? What happens if they succeed?
IMO this is a pretty ridiculous drawback, it’s like saying “wired headphones are worse because the wire can be used as a garrote”, which is true, but not an actual drawback for 99.999% of people.
transmission by radio will always be less energy efficient than transmission by wire
So what?
IMO the drawbacks of wired headphones are:
- The cable often gets tangled, and it’s a pain in the ass to untangle it
- The cable can often get snagged on things, and if that happens the best thing that can happen is that the headphones can go flying out of your ears. The worst thing that can happen is that the phone goes flying out of your pocket and smashes on the ground.
- The cables can get dirty and frayed, and if they get too frayed they can break or get worn down so they have an iffy connection.
- Even when the cable isn’t tangled, just arranging the wire so it’s out of the way, long enough to get to your ears, but not so long it gets tangled can be frustrating.
- Trying to use your phone for anything else while your headphones are attached can be a problem. Say you want to take a picture of something, or pay for something using NFC, you have to be careful of the cable. If you had the cable tucked into your shirt or zipped up in your jacket so it’s out of the way, now the cable might not be long enough anymore.
- Because of the wire, you’re limited in where you can put your phone, and your head has to always be within a short distance to your phone. With a wireless headset you can choose to put the phone in a knapsack if that’s more convenient, and when you put down the knapsack you can take a few steps away from it without losing your connection and interrupting whatever you’re listening to.
- If you’re doing something like working in the kitchen while listening to music or a podcast, you can’t put your phone down on the counter and use it to look at a recipe, because as soon as you have to move to go get another ingredient, or to move from the cutting board to the sink, you have to pick the phone up again. And that can be a real issue if you have goop on your hands and you’re moving to the sink to wash them off.
- In cold weather / winter you might want to have your phone in a jacket or something. If you go inside and take the jacket off you either have to pause things while you transfer the phone to another pocket and rearrange the wire, or you have to do this complicated dance where you clear the wire and move the phone without accidentally yanking the wire out of the phone or out of your ears. With a wireless headset you just take the phone and move it to a new pocket whenever that’s convenient.
The headphone wire is a potential personal security vulnerability as a ninja can use it to garrote you.
The drawbacks for a wireless headset are:
- They tend to have batteries that can’t be replaced, so eventually they lose their ability to hold a charge and need to be replaced. It can get really annoying to use them when the batteries are starting to fail and they hold less than an hour of charge.
- They tend to be much more expensive than wired headphones.
- Wireless buds are easier to lose, and easier to drop. If you drop them they can bounce and roll under things, or into the street or who knows where.
- They do eventually run out of charge, and you do have to charge them, and sometimes they can be low on charge / out of charge when you want to use them.
- There’s a fair amount of lag, which can be annoying when you’re trying to skip commercials on podcasts and so-on.
First of all, you’re forgetting that the actual problem is that the headphone jack does not require you remove bluetooth from the device. The issue here is giving user less options and more costly “solutions”.
The cable often gets tangled, and it’s a pain in the ass to untangle it
Git gud. It’s not that hard to roll up the cable so that it doesn’t tangle. Worst case scenario, you can buy a small case.
The cable can often get snagged on things, and if that happens the best thing that can happen is that the headphones can go flying out of your ears. The worst thing that can happen is that the phone goes flying out of your pocket and smashes on the ground.
Run the cable through your shirt. Problem solved.
The cables can get dirty and frayed, and if they get too frayed they can break or get worn down so they have an iffy connection.
Use headphones with a replaceable wire. That way you can use a cable with or without a mic or use different lentghs. Hell, you can even make your own and they’re cheap. Even if the wire isn’t easily replaceable, most headphones can be fixed with a bit of patience and a soldering iron.
Even when the cable isn’t tangled, just arranging the wire so it’s out of the way, long enough to get to your ears, but not so long it gets tangled can be frustrating.
You’re just doing mental gymnastics at this point.
Trying to use your phone for anything else while your headphones are attached can be a problem. Say you want to take a picture of something, or pay for something using NFC, you have to be careful of the cable. If you had the cable tucked into your shirt or zipped up in your jacket so it’s out of the way, now the cable might not be long enough anymore.
Or you can, I don’t know, unplug the headphones for 2 seconds.
Because of the wire, you’re limited in where you can put your phone, and your head has to always be within a short distance to your phone. With a wireless headset you can choose to put the phone in a knapsack if that’s more convenient, and when you put down the knapsack you can take a few steps away from it without losing your connection and interrupting whatever you’re listening to.
Redundant. Also, put your phone in your pocket and stop whinin’.
If you’re doing something like working in the kitchen while listening to music or a podcast, you can’t put your phone down on the counter and use it to look at a recipe, because as soon as you have to move to go get another ingredient, or to move from the cutting board to the sink, you have to pick the phone up again. And that can be a real issue if you have goop on your hands and you’re moving to the sink to wash them off.
My man, are you allergic to speakers? You’re cooking in a kitchen. Lose the headphones.
In cold weather / winter you might want to have your phone in a jacket or something. If you go inside and take the jacket off you either have to pause things while you transfer the phone to another pocket and rearrange the wire, or you have to do this complicated dance where you clear the wire and move the phone without accidentally yanking the wire out of the phone or out of your ears. With a wireless headset you just take the phone and move it to a new pocket whenever that’s convenient.
Skill issue. Run your wire underneath your jacket and you won’t have this “”“problem”“”.
Run the cable through your shirt. Problem solved.
New problem created. Now when you want to take your phone out of your pocket to take a picture of something or scan it for an NFT sale you can’t do that easily because you have this wire running through your shirt connecting your phone to your headphones. Also, if it’s winter, now your phone has to go in an inner pocket not an outer one so you can’t easily access it anymore.
Or you can, I don’t know, unplug the headphones for 2 seconds.
And start blasting whatever you’re listening to to the whole world? Well, you could pause what you’re listening to first. Don’t you see how this is much less convenient than wireless headphones where you don’t have to make all these compromises?
Redundant. Also, put your phone in your pocket and stop whinin’.
Ah, accept a less convenient alternative because of the limitations of the wires. Sure, sounds great.
My man, are you allergic to speakers? You’re cooking in a kitchen.
You’re cooking in a kitchen. There are loud fans, loud kettles. Why would you use a speaker that you have to turn way up to blast over all that noise? What’s wrong with you. Use headphones, you’re in a kitchen!
Skill issue. Run your wire underneath your jacket and you won’t have this “”“problem”“”.
Now you have the other problems with your phone being inside an inner pocket and not easily accessible for doing things like taking pictures or doing NFT transactions. You really haven’t thought this through, have you?
You’re like one of those people from infomercials who is unrealistically bad at simple low-skill activities
And you’re like that farmer with his ass, glaring at all the newfangled technology, convinced it must be useless because you can’t understand it.
Great arguments! /s
Still no reason to not just have both options.
Well, the reason not to have both options if you’re a phone manufacturer is that pesky port. Every port is a headache for them. There structural weak points, they’re places that can get dust and dirt in them, etc. As a user, I want as many options as possible, but if I can get a phone that’s $100 cheaper because it doesn’t have a headphone port, I’ll definitely choose that option.
Now when you want to take your phone out of your pocket to take a picture of something or scan it for an NFT sale you can’t do that easily
Sure you can. Just unplug the headphones.
And start blasting whatever you’re listening to to the whole world?
You’re either trolling or you’ve never used wired headphones. Playback stops automatically when you unplug a wired headphone. It’s the same thing when you disconnect a bluetooth headphone.
You’re cooking in a kitchen. There are loud fans, loud kettles. Why would you use a speaker that you have to turn way up to blast over all that noise?
Wtf? Lol. If you’re kitchen is that loud, something’s wrong with it.
or doing NFT transactions. You really haven’t thought this through, have you?
Yeah, you’re either trolling or a very special kind of person.
Sure you can. Just unplug the headphones.
First you have to stop whatever you’re listening to or you start playing it on a speaker for everyone. Doing that is an annoyance that you don’t need to put up with if you just use wireless headphones.
Playback stops automatically when you unplug a wired headphone
Maybe it does today, I don’t know, I haven’t used wired headphones in many years. Back in the day it didn’t.
Wtf? Lol. If you’re kitchen is that loud, something’s wrong with it.
If you are kitchen is quiet, you really should be using the fan to get the smoke and food smells out of the kitchen. Maybe if you’re just making pop-tarts then it isn’t a big deal, but if you actually ever do any serious cooking you’ll discover that it gets loud.
Yeah, you’re either trolling or a very special kind of person.
Why are you so scared of the modern world? Is it that you’re too confused by it all? Can’t handle touchscreens? Scared by https? It’s ok man, just take a course. You’ll learn to live in the present, not the past.
- they are cable-less, thus need to be charged separately
I’ll give you that, but my bone conduction headset lasts a few days with the amount I use
- they are cable-less, thus it is easier to lose them
Meh. I’ve put corded earbuds in my pocket and probably worn them out faster that way. Bluetooth headsets I tend to leave on (much to my wife’s annoyance) and that makes them last longer in my experience.
- bluetooth implementation is a potential security vulnerability
Aha, that van outside must be tapping into me listening to The Dandy Warhols! I knew it! (In all seriousness, if security is that critical you probably shouldn’t be doing whatever it is over WiFi, which is pretty much unavoidable with a phone)
- transmission by radio will always be less energy efficient than transmission by wire
Are we really talking about saving energy here? That’s like… Moisture in the bucket levels. Not even a drop in the bucket
I agree with you, even if you are downvoted. I’ve wrecked more in-ear buds by (non-replaceable) broken cable than i can count, while i’m on my 3rd bluetooth headphone in about 10 years - i lost none of them, and the second one is still around as backup.
The security is a thing that can be patched if it pops up and is only an issue if your OPSEC differs strongly from the common citizen, and the energy argument comes across like a purity test - the light in my fridge probably uses more energy.
I would never go back to cable, especially since noise cancelling doesn’t work without a battery anyway - and i am very unhappy without noise cancelling.
Also, i have a power bank where i can use 21600 Li-ion Battery cells as power source (and it doubles as charger for those cells) - on travels i take a few batteries with me, and even if i find myself for weeks without power, i will have it whenever i need it.
they are cable-less, thus need to be charged separatel
If you wish for ANC you’ll need a battery anyway, and most people do want ANC these days
they are cable-less, thus it is easier to lose them
I’m loosing my wired headphone far more often, for a simple reason: wireless ones having a battery allows me to make them beep, given they are near, of course.
bluetooth implementation is a potential security vulnerability
Sure, and so are wired headphone as they act as an antenna, broadcasting to anyone with an appropriate receptor anything you say and/or hear.
As for the implementation vulnerabilities, at least it can be patched.transmission by radio will always be less energy efficient than transmission by wire
Sure, but is it that much of a problem? It would take years (if not decades) of constant listening to even use a dollar of electricity for wireless headphones. Even if you factor the data transmission from the phone into that.
And wired headphone are not energy neutral either. They works by pulling energy from the phone battery.I prefer the wireless headphones ease of use to headphone I have to untangle every time I want to use them. I keep my wired ones for home uses.
You can have both or you can deny people who like wired. You are choosing denial.
Those who like wired aren’t out of option either. Adapters exists, are cheap, and have often a far better audio quality than integrated ports due to not being as size constrained as the main body itself, and being further from interferences. You can quite easily find some that allows to charge your phone at the same time (even if the usb-c norm do not allows it on paper).
Bluetooth alternatives aren’t better, that’s laughable.
You cant buy beyerdynamics DT-990s with Bluetooth, you cant get Sennheiser HD 490 Pros with Bluetooth, you cant buy Audeze LCD-5s with Bluetooth. I could go on and on but you get the point. Good headphones don’t use Bluetooth.
The nice headphones a lot of us have had for years, well before the headphone jack was removed don’t have Bluetooth.
So when you say they’re better 1. You’re wrong. And 2. You’re missing the point.
If you prefer Bluetooth, fine, but phones with headphone jacks still have Bluetooth. You’re only ok with it because it doesn’t effect you and I think that’s appalling.
Imagine phone manufacturers remove the ability to use Bluetooth headphones and I say “that’s fine, wired headphones are better anyway”. It’s not about that, it’s about removing your freedom to choose and it should NOT be tolerated
You are right. But for >99% of users Bluetooth is a perfectly sufficient connection format for headphones.
I work in IT and pairing bluetooth is sometimes so finnicky i give up for a few days. I can accept that I’m not that great at IT but I don’t think 99% of people don’t have these problems.
And it’s not a thing you do one time, most of these gadgets need re-pairing every sone time for whatever reason.
Oh I’ll agree that sometimes Bluetooth pairing can be finicky.
But the person I replied to was talking about how Bluetooth is not good enough for audiophile quality headphones. But most people don’t care and can’t even notice the difference.
There are a lot of very good Bluetooth headphones from Bose, Sony, and the like. If you take a look at lab tests, most of lf them got a frequency response pretty close to the ideal curve, and ANC helps a lot to isolate outside noises that would drown out the music on wired headphones.
But I do agree about choice, just not on the blind refusal of using USB-C adapters. That’s unfortunate that they removed it, but it has some good reasons. A headphone jack wasn’t made to be waterproof, and if some managed to make some of them waterproof-ish, it is often by enclosing it into its own little sub-enclosure, with a good short-circuit protection (because even a tiny water drop in there mean a short), both of which takes place.
Same goes for the DAC, we got so far into miniaturizing it, and inside interferences are so high now with new technologies, it probably wouldn’t be viable anymore to have it inside the phone itself. Even larger device, like the Steam Deck, have problems preventing interferences on the headphones jack, so that must be an even bigger problem on something as tinny as a phone 😅citing bose and sony vs sennheiser audeze and beyerdynamics, dude, you don’t know headphones
I trust in independent reviews, reproducible tests and hard numbers, not in brand cultivated images and subjective choices. I don’t care if it comes for Audeze, Sony, or a Chinese Knockoff, numbers doesn’t lie.
Could you show us the frequency response for the Bose vs the LCD-5s and tell us why you prefer the Bose?
did… did you just call sennheiser a chinese knockoff? dude, know when to bow out
Hell no. I’m well aware it is a good audio brand (german I think, but may be mistaken)
What I wanted to say here is that I prefer an objective good quality product, adapted to my needs, to a brand name. Even well known brands sometimes make bad products.
As an example, I have a Sony WH-1000XM3. But if I’d be interested in an XM4, there is no way in hell I’d buy an XM5, because of some shitty choices they took (no more foldable design, forced adaptative ANC). Maybe the XM6 will end up of interest to me, I did not yet check its specs, but considering I recently changed my current XM3 battery, I won’t be back on the market until the XM7 or XM8.
Phones that run Linux and have a headphone jack:
2026 will be the year of the Linux phone!
Hmmm. Then I would need to figure out how my authenticators would work. I have like 3 different ones for a total of like 18 accounts. It’s annoying as all hell
I’d love for that to be the case, but without a lot more polish and the ability to run Android apps in some kind of sandbox I don’t see it happening.
need more ppl to adopt it while its shitty for that point to ever come
2026 will be the year of the Linux phone!
or 2027. Or some Chinese variant of android on Chinese/Taiwan phone that allows sideloading, perhaps with alternate playstore and maps. I don’t yet understand how draconian this actually gets implemented, but death of android/google (to me) is possible. If hardware is good enough, then android emulator will be fine for legacy apps.
No, bluetooth is not better. Bluetooth has latency which is bad for anything that needs realtime audio, like video games or any kind of live performance. It also runs on 2.4 like every other electronic Wireless devices making it prone to interference. And it’s yet another device to keep charged all the time.
USB C is also inferior because you need dongles which increase complexity of your setup, it’s more prone to failures. Like audio cutting off every x minutes because connection is just slightly loose or other electronic gremlins. I’m saying this having just had a gig and the MD’s phone we relied on for the metronome started acting up during the performance not recognizing the dongle until a reboot.
Audio jacks were simple, analog, worked perfectly fine and delivered high quality audio. What we have now is overengineered slop that is less reliable and more expensive.
Bluetooth is better than…it used to be? Because I promise you there is no earbud on planet earth better than my open back cans.
I never had one of my wired earbuds fall off the platform at the train station and disappear in the gravel, nor did I ever have isues with forgetting to charge them, let alone their case being brolen and not charging at all. And if I want to switch my favourite headphones over from my PC to my phone, I’m really glad my old phone still has a jack.
I still have a headphone jack. Rare but Androids with them exist if you go out of the mainstream bullshit.
saying “bluetooth alternatives are far better these days” ignores the uses cases for cable.
I have a fp4 and it is VERY annoying to not have jack(I don’t wanna use bluetooth because jack works, doesn’t need a battery and is low tech), so now I only listen to music on my computer, but I’m planning on making an mp3 player with a raspberry pi pico.
Fairphone is too big, i don’t want a phablet in my pocket
The removable batteries coming back would also impact the iPhone, which actually respects user privacy because Apple is not a marketing company. Apple is a products and services company, they sell tech devices and make a lot of money on services like Apple Music and TV+ and such. It’s expensive for a reason; you can even take the encryption keys out of Apple’s hands for iCloud so you genuinely are fully protected
They won’t become “removable” like in ye old Nokia days. It’s not like you can carry extra batteries and just swap them on the go.
They just have to be swappable without special tools or specialist equipment.
So what if Bluetooth are “better”?
Still no reason to not have both.
The Apple adapter is very good. I used one on my Linux machine that had a finicky built in port. Obviously works great on a phone. If you need one in a car at least MagSafe/qi is available now but not ideal.
I don’t love the idea of “removable” batteries being mandated if that means like the batteries in an old flip phone. We needed them then because the capacity was so bad and power banks didn’t exist. I would prefer that manufacturers require them to be third party replaceable instead.
They have to be user removable, not hot-removable. Take a FP6 as an example, you have to remove a couple of screw to get to it, then another couple to remove it. What are forbidden will be glued batteries and back panels.
That’s convenient to swap a battery but I feel like my phone is more likely to get soaked than need a battery swap at any time in the next two years. The FP6 is IP55 rated.
Looks like FP6 battery is £45 and iPhone 14 is £60-£90 depending where you buy it. I know I can get that done in the next hour or two where I live, so I don’t see it as a big deal.
The replaceable camera feature is more compelling because a broken front iPhone camera can effectively brick the device.
My phone is IP68 and you can replace the battery. Does require removing some screws to get the case off but I think that would pretty much be required to waterproof it anyway.
Shame they discontinued Cat phones
A replaceable usb-c port is great too. My previous Nokia 8.1 died because of that, and my previous FP5 needed a replacement after 2 years of use.
But I agree that Fairphone have work to do on waterproofing their phones. It was hard with the previous hand removable back panel, but now that they added screws to the back panel, it wouldn’t be that much of a a stretch to add some o-rings to further waterproof it. I’m sure they could get it to IP66 rather easily, maybe IP67 with a little more work.
Tbf, you can a very cheap android phone for around $100 USD, the cheapest iPhone starts at around
$400(edit: Actually I got curious and looked it up, apparantly the iPhone SE is gone and the cheapest new iPhone right now seems to be the 16e which start at $600). Also, Apple developer account cost $99 per year, Google developer account cost $25 one time fee, so the cost is gonna trickle down to the user, sometimes you find free apps on google play and then you look at apple and it cost a few dollars, its most likely due to the recurring costs to maintain a developer account.Also, Apple doesn’t allow torrent clients, You can’t use firefox with ublock origin on iOS.
(But then again, these advantages could also go away in a few years… 👀)
Wait no Firefox on iPhone? Fuck that I’m back in
There is a “firefox” but its just a re-skinned safari basicly, because Apple has some weird requirement of using their “webkit” or whatever, and no extensions allowed on the “firefox”. I used an iPhone before (because I was a young adult and iPhones looked shiny) and I was so sad to find out I couldn’t use uBlock Origin on it. And then finding out torrent apps are non-existent just made me cry.
Yes they do have “adblockers” like Brave or those Adguard thing on safari, but those are dogshit and they broke like half of the time, and many ads get through anyways, especially on youtube (where as uBlock Origin only break sites like 5% of the time).
Orion sorta lets you use Firefox addons. I use the built in adblocker it has tho.
Friend you can buy a much cheaper android phone, which is why I don’t really care much about this, though it is still obviously bad. I hate my phone, I hate cellphones in general, they’re shitty feature locked mini laptops with a subscription so I can, what, make and receive 12 phonecalls a month? Download half a gb when I’m out of wifi range? Use google maps, the literally only truly useful thing my cellphone does for me?
Anyway, because of my disdain I buy the absolute cheapest cellphone on the market that has no attached plan, once every three or four years. I got a new one last month.
It cost thirty bucks. My monthly unlimited talk and text and data plan comes to about 22$ a month.
It’s a piece of shit, obviously. But if all you’re doing is begrudgingly using it to make a couple calls, send some texts, scroll Lemmy while you’re pooping and occasionally use a map the price is appropriate.
I just get a flipphone, and try to build some portable computing device from a Raspberry Pi CM, even if they made it 5V, for “industrial purposes” (read: likely some industry people wanted to stop people from building their own portable devices), which is less ideal for battery operation.
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Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I’m glad I stopped expecting logic from you people.
What’d you mean you people?
Their arguments are kind of lame. To install APKs from outside the store is already an involved process that generally makes it harder for the uninformed to sideload. Make sideloading a bit harder, but possible. My xiaomi makes me wait and read warnings before installing APKs, for example.
Side loading will still be possible but the apps themselves will need to be signed by the developer through Google, so Google ultimately still controls what can be installed. Maybe someone will crack it.
[Installing software] will still be possible but the apps themselves will need to be signed by the developer through Google, so Google ultimately still controls what can be installed. Maybe someone will crack it.
Fixed that for you :-)
It’s a great way to workaround them being forced to open the ecosystem a little and allowing alternative stores and that stuff. It only took more than a decade, they obviously not happy about it, so gotta screw people in another way.
That’s apple. Android has traditionally allowed sideloading. They aren’t be forced to open up anything, they’re just adding restrictions.
“Uugfhh, but the users don’t read the warnings!! They just click yes until it works!!”
And that’s my problem because??? For fucks sake
But this process impacts other stores, too, like FDroid.
I know it’s not really ready for it yet, but I guess I’m gonna be looking into a Linux phone before I thought I would.
Same, though I think this will be the push the community needs to really launch a good Linux phone. It’ll suck for awhile, but I’m looking forward to debating phone distros with all of you.
Sorry it took so long to reply, I was waiting for Gentoo to finish compiling on my phone.
Compling the message*
I’m using arch mobile btw
I use Debian as my daily driver and am disappointed to see that the best-supported devices under Mobian within my budget are the Pinephone (which has shockingly low specs) or the Pinephone Pro (recently discontinued, no longer sold. Also had poor specs).
I was toying with was getting an SBC with an LTE/5G hat & 7in touch screen, plugging it into a portable battery, and 3d printing a case for it.
Fairphone with PostMarketOS seems more practical.
What are your thoughts on the Furi Phone?
I’d get disappointed if its distro wouldn’t be called FuriOS
The FLX1 runs FuriOS, which is an operating system based on Debian, designed and oriented for mobile use without any artificial limitations.
phew
I have the PinePhone Pro in a drawer somewhere. It’s just a fun toy, not even remotely usable as a daily driver. But I might have a look at it again and see how many tasks still remains before I could theoretically use Mobian as a daily driver.
My main problem with linux phones is that many apps only exist only for android or ios.
Sure some apps are basically a website that you can acess by web browser but many apps cant be replaced able (banking, tickets, public transport, games)
My main problem with the current crop of Linux phones is, or at least it’s my impression - is that they still struggle with the basic phone part. As in network connectivity (at least in the US), making and receiving calls, SMS & MMS, and VoLTE support. If there’s a Linux phone where that stuff is solid and works, I’d buy one. I don’t really care about the whole app ecosystem - I barely have any apps on my Android phone now.
Waydroid works really well to run Android apps on mobile Linux, even for games. Doesn’t help for banking apps though as they’ll usually lock you out due to not passing Google safety checks.
I’ll give it a try. I only have like two Android apps I really do need. And what do I have to lose but my shackles, right?
Isn’t Waydroid shady?
Most Android apps can be run under a mini-VM in the Linux systems I’ve tried - but some apps won’t function well that way (banking, NFC tickets, etc)
I think I’d be willing to let go of the handful of things that are exclusive, given that I could probably do more with a proper Linux system. It’s the basic phone functionality (as others have mentioned) that keeps me from switching.
I thought so too, but over the years I have migrated so much of my life away from apps in order to see if it’s possible and apart from games I find that with a browser and an email client I don’t really need apps. Still use apps though, they are way more convenient.
Banking is tedious without apps, but works with browser and an MFA-dongle in my country.
Wait, Linux phones are a thing? How do they get the market share to compete with the big tech?
That’t the neat part, they don’t. They’re still very niche
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This is about Revanced, isn’t it? They failed to kill it via the YouTube backend so now it’s down to lock down the os and browsers as much as possible to keep feeding people the juicy ads.
Something kind of concerning I just found - there’s an option for “limited distribution” which is “Intended for ‘students, hobbyists, and other personal use.’” One of the differences is the following:
Has “capped number of apps and installs”(specific limits not disclosed)
Doesn’t this imply there’s going to be global tracking of what apps people are installing even through sideloading or APKs? I can’t think of any other way to enforce this. They would have to know how many times people installed an app even when its not through any kind of app store or even from the internet at all.
I’m pretty sure that was implemented a while ago. My install of VLC from F-Droid started showing up in Play Store’s update list.
It couldn’t update since the signature didn’t match, but Google knew about it and included it anyway.
That has just always been the case as long as the app in both stores uses the same package string. (Like org.blitzortung.android.app or org.videolan.vlc)
Wasn’t always the case (I think it changed within the past two years), but upon doing research on when it changed I stumbled on this gem.
“Google would never do something like that” comments just one year ago. Oh my! Google dropped the “don’t be evil” motto a long time ago.
It’s been the case ever since I started using Android (and modded APKs such as old versions of apps re-signed to not update) in about 2011.
Some of the root apps back then such as Titanium Backup had features to “unhook” an app so it wouldn’t appear as installed in the store, but my experience was that it never lasted long enough to be worth doing.
Could be, but that could also just be done locally. Like your phone checking the apps you have installed and seeing if the same ones are on the play store. Having an install limit for an app - assuming that means that the app can only be installed some total number of times globally (a local install limit wouldn’t make any sense I think) - necessarily implies that when you install an app through an APK, it has to tell Google that you installed that app so it can track how many people have installed it and not approve installation of the app if it’s over whatever the limit is.
If your phone is checking for that information, it’s a safe bet it’s reporting it back to Google.
Probably. But that might be under the umbrella of optional usage statistics/reporting that you can opt out of. Since this new tracking would be “necessary” for their “security” feature to work, there’s no chance that it could be avoided.
I think that’s how it works when you have apps with the same name from different app stores, I noticed it with a different app like two years ago.
That’s interesting. I was just checking to see if Cromite showed up there but couldn’t find it, is there a menu you found yours under outside the update tab? If something as simple as a browser I use is going to be blocked from installs/monitored I can’t see why I’d stay in this ecosystem.
They provide the OS, what makes you think that kind of tracking isn’t already happening?
App stores provide the apks but then you’ll use your phone’s installer to actually, well, install the apks.There are some alternatives to the default apk installers
Presumably that will work like test flight does where you can only install the app through an invite system
I readily await the visibility and interest this will give mobile linux development.
Nearly 100% of the development for handheld Linux is Steam OS / Steam Deck. If Valve moves to ARM at some point then you might see useful improvements that benefit the mobile use case.
the collaborative world works off of demand. Pocket laptops and linux phones have been a nice distraction for long enough. They may soon become more of a saving grace.
I’m not saying you’ll be able to run Spyware Simulator 2000 on PostmarketOS. I’m more saying that any secondary device you use for foss software will be more focused upon as an actual decent alternative for getting work done without being spied on by capitalist nazis.
These devices can run web browsers. That’s 80% of your needs already taken care of and we haven’t even left Firefox.
CARRY TWO PHONES??!!
What will the neighbors think!?
It seems like fewer people care about being spied on, “I have nothing to hide”, and many people don’t even change the settings to prevent sharing contacts, photos, and location with privacy hostile apps like Facebook.
Can a steam deck be turned into a phone?
probably doesn’t have the necessary antennae
Attach some dangling USB modem with a data SIM, or just keep a mobile router with a data SIM in your backpack, for 3G/4G/5G data connectivity over WiFi. Then, use some VoIP provider if you actually need a phone number as well.
It won’t do phone calls or SMS but otherwise sure why not. Just call/msg with matrix or discord
Also JMP.chat
My shitty country cant use those anyway.
What is blocking it? I haven’t done much research yet but was hoping to find a new OS if this goes through. Wouldn’t it be the same as putting a sim card into a tablet/laptop? Or is there something specific to your country that stands out?
Probably they need to pay for an IMEI fee their government wants. I know because it’s the same here. I got PinePhone for $200 and had to pay for $250 IMEI fee. What did I do? Changed the IMEI to my old dead phone’s.
Nice, that makes sense. Doesn’t is store more data than just an IMEI number though, like make/model, did you have to spoof that as well or was that easily ignored
Normally, yes. As for my government concerns, I’m using Nexus 5X. They probably would notice if they investigate but as long as there are no more than 1 active phones with the same IMEI, they most likely won’t notice.
Look up Australia’s whitelisting system.
If you phone isn’t manually approved, it won’t be able to connect to a cell tower, not even for emergency calls.
not even for emergency calls.
That’s wild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJavqEzEIw (sources in video description)
If your phone isn’t manually approved, its assumed your phone doesn’t support 4g/5g, therefore, blocked.
4G/5G phones have already been blocked
Fairphone isn’t certified in Australia, Pinephone also isn’t, nor Librem 5.
Custom ROMs on an approved phone might work for now, but they could potentially start verifying OS in the future if the autocratization trend continues. Also, manufacturers could starts start locking the bootloader.
The best realistic way forward is have two devices, one is the “normie” phone, the other is your own pocket PC running a Libre OS.
What the hell
If Google is going to lock down my device to the point where I can’t install apps without their permission, I might as well dump Android and go straight to Apple. I sacrificed my phone being good for the openness of the platform, but if Google loses that openness, why shouldn’t I go with Apple?
I find it very strange how many people in the comments here think the solution is to buy an iPhone. Maybe you are all just rich and can afford to spend $1000+ based on vibes, but considering the Android market still has a massive value advantage I’m not really sure what the point of switching is. This all feels very similar to how some Westerners decided Chinese tech and even the Chinese government were suddenly problem-free just because Americans elected Trump for a second time.
Apple now allows sideloading of apps and Google is trying to get rid of sideloading.
What… the Fuck?
fuck google tbh
So ,i install graphene OS on a pixel phone ,problem solved
Well the assumption is that the Graphene team will be able to maintain non-store app installs. There’s recent news that Google is no longer providing update packages the way they used to which will make it harder on Graphene to update stuff too.
We can’t assume that Google’s next update will not functionally block the ability for GrapheneOS as well.
I believe Google plans to use Google Play Services to block side loaded apps. By default, GrapheneOS does not come with Google Play Services installed. I am not sure how things would work if the sandboxes version of Google Play Services that GrapheneOS provides is installed.
The issue about maintaining/updating GrapheneOS is a separate issue from side loading apps. That was due to Google shifting the development of Android to a closed source model and only open sourcing the final code. This limits the Grapheme team’s ability to anticipate changes and make any required adjustments until after the release of Android.
The Graphene OS team have said that they are going to continue, have received the pixel 10 phones they ordered and have put out a statement regarding this issue.
No they didn’t…
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/25099-pixel-10-still-too-early-to-ask-us-when-it-will-be-supported
Our Pixel 10 support will likely only be possible to complete after we finish porting to Android 16 QPR1 which is being released in September.
They don’t know IF they can even support it until they figure out the new releases that are jacking up their dev cycle.
It will be significantly more work than usual to support the new Pixel 10 phones since Android 16 removed the Pixel device trees from the Android Open Source Project. However, that was already only part of what we need for device support and we worked around it by expanding our automated tooling.
This is exactly the issue I’m referencing. Google can completely sabotage this route. We don’t know yet.
Edit: I should clarify that they did say they’re trying to continue, but should they not be able to crack the device tree issues they will be stuck. Nothing they released said that they’ve figured this issue out yet.
Sure, but the problem is the ecosystem of alternatives stores effectively collapsing or falling under Google’s control. That will affect everybody who uses them, whether on GrapheneOS, LineageOS or certified devices.
Only a matter of time before Google will shut that down too.
GrapheneOS is one of the last bastions of freedom remaining. I don’t know what we’ll do if that happens.
For my next phone it will be between a used Pixel with Graphene OS and the Fairphone 6 with the de-Googled e/OS option. A modern Pixel would be a little better for CPU, camera and RAM, but the Fairphone has decent hardware specs and tries to be more ethical about the environment and its suppliers, and it has a replaceable battery. The Fairphone is expensive in the USA though.
https://shop.fairphone.com/the-fairphone-gen-6-e-operating-system
https://www.wired.com/review/fairphone-gen-6/
Edit: After reading this thread I would lean towards Graphene OS:
Recently a user here did the math on that and the fair/eco part of fairphone is really miniscule (they spend less than 5$ per phone and a big part of that are fairwashing credits). Unless you need the repairability or the specific specs, you might be better off to buy a cheaper phone and just donate money to a good cause.
Here is the original post: https://lemmy.world/post/32013987
sailfish?
I’ve quickily looked up Sailfish and am shocked that we haven’t been hearing more about it. Why is so? Where’s the catch?
We currently sell and ship Jolla C2 within the European Union, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Switzerland.
From a cursory glance, they don’t ship to any of the largest smartphone markets. That’s likely why you don’t hear much about them as opposed to any of the global distributors.
It actually looks decent, and their C2 phone looks reasonable though not premium (8GB RAM, 4G LTE, a 1600x720 screen and no fingerprint reader are not brilliant specs, though they’ll do the job and it’s a nice looking phone). The OS subscription might put some people off though: you get one year of updates and then have to pay about €5 per month.
I’m pretty curious about the C2, as well, but don’t live in their market, and don’t want to pay 100% of the phone cost in shipping fees, etc. And after all that, I have no guarantee of support. As for the €60 per year, my latest phone is an S22 Ultra, half of whose features I no longer use due to the updated Samsung TOS. I can absorb that cost for the sake of updates, if they’d let me.
The forums suggest there are quite a lot of bugs and the device is slow. I hope Sailfish OS continues to improve but for a daily driver I’m leaning towards Graphene OS as the best option for now.
Linux phones I guess. I really don’t know.
A phone that works with proper linux: PostmarketOS, Sailfish OS or Ubuntu Touch.
Probably own a privacy-invasive phone and use it as little as possible.
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Everywhere I talk about some corporation removing features you bought and paid for, someone says that “they personally would never used that feature”, or “serves them right for buying from that company”.
In other words, go fuck yourself.
Just give google more money, no thanks. Fairphone with lineage OS is a better option in my opinion.
Fairphone is contributing directly to the linux kernel so they have my vote!
Plus their mission to try to make a phone with fair materials and compensation in their entire production chain. Is it perfect, of course not, but a lot better than all other brands.
Easy. Refurbed phone. Google didn’t get a penny.
That’s keeps the used price for pixels high, which encourages people to buy new pixels cause they know it has a good resale market.
Child slaves labored to make raw materials for the device you’re holding. Your purchase kept the market rate for raw materials high, encouraging the continued use of slave labor. Don’t you feel bad?
We do the best we can with the decisions we have available to us.
I agree, that’s why I have a Fairphone. It’s a way to minimize that impact.
Unfortunately a Fairphone is not a secure device.
From a practical standpoint it’s secure enough for me, and I value the fair sourcing of components and labor a lot more than the little I am losing on security.
what will most people do, who don’t have a google pixel?
lol the pinned comment on this video is
“Ok, so what do i switch to now? I refuse apple. So what do i have to chose from?”,
and Louis’ reply is “nothing”.
And it’s not surprising he has that answer. I don’t think I’ve seen but one video from this guy but it was him talking about how that lead Dev from graphene was harassing him. And up to that point he was super big into graphene apparently.
Google pixel 8 pro is now 559 euro in holland
Yes, throw more money towards the company doing this, sounds solid
Pixel phones cost several times what my phone costed.
The delictable irony that if you don’t want to use their os, you need to use their phone
Yep ,thats is the way
Purism scams their customers left, right, and center and have for effectively their entire existence. They should not be trusted, and their phone specs are basically from 2013 sold for $800.
So even if you’re idealistic enough to pay $800 for a phone that’d be in a landfill if it didn’t have hardware privacy features, Purism will take that trust you have in them and screw you over – delay you for as long as they need to/can/want with no recourse for a refund outside of maybe the courts. After which you hope you either get a functioning product or get good luck with a disorganized, opaque, scumfuck company like that.
Thanks for sharing so looks like that one is not an option anymore
You’re not being honest. They struggled to deliver their ambitious mainline Linux phone on time during Covid yes, but they eventually delivered. The fact that they did is a huge win for the mobile Linux ecosystem becoming a real contender just when we need it. All their other products are just fine.
NXP i.MX family debuted in 2013; Intel i7 family in 2008. Their phone uses a 2017 i.MX 8M Quad, the same year they crowdfunded their phone. 2017 i7 computers are equally not from 2008…
It still today remains one of the best ARM processors with open source drivers without an integrated baseband. It means basically any flavour of Linux can install on the device, with a significant layer of protection from carrier conduited attacks. Other modules have similar tradeoffs between performance and interoperability/security.
Want better specs? We either need SoC companies to release more of their drivers open source, or more people to patiently reverse engineer closed source ones.
They struggled to deliver their ambitious mainline Linux phone on time during Covid yes, but they eventually delivered.
And for the people who requested refunds who waited months if not never received them? Despite them moving back their timeline literal years with repeated delays? I don’t care what challenges they faced; they knowingly took people’s money and refused to give it back to them when they couldn’t deliver. It’s their responsibility to be prepared for challenges. And in some extreme edge case where they couldn’t have been prepared, it’s their responsibility to be transparent about that to the people who gave them over a million dollars (let alone purchased the product after the Kickstarter was finished). I suppose too that the pandemic affected Purism in January 2019 when they were supposed to deliver their product?
The fact that they did is a huge win for the mobile Linux ecosystem becoming a real contender just when we need it.
The Librem 5 is not a contender for shit. It’s so overpriced that it can only be successfully marketed to people who care so deeply about their privacy that they’re willing to use an inconvenient mobile OS, get completely boned on hardware specs, and deal with a company notorious for fucking over its customers. Purism’s behavior is a fucking embarrassment to the Linux ecosystem.
NXP i.MX family debuted in 2013; Intel i7 family in 2008. Their phone uses a 2017 i.MX 8M Quad, the same year they crowdfunded their phone.
That CPU is based on the ARM Cortex-A53 and Cortex-M4, launched in 2012 and 2009, respectively.
2017 i7 computers are equally not from 2008…
When I say “2013”, I’m not talking about the debut year of i.MX. I’m talking about the fact that you can compare this phone side-by-side with a Galaxy S4 or S5. 3 GB of RAM, 32 GB of eMMC storage, a 720 x 1440p IPS display, no NFC, USB 3.0, an 8/13 MP front/back camera (which they inexplicably call “Mpx”; good job, guys), 802.11n Wi-Fi, no waterproofing, and a shitty-ass i.MX 8M CPU. I still remember watching a trailer for the Librem 5’s continuing development, and as they were scrolling through a web browser, it was noticeably stuttering. This was years and years ago; I can’t even imagine it today.
It still today remains one of the best ARM processors with open source drivers without an integrated baseband. It means basically any flavour of Linux can install on the device, with a significant layer of protection from carrier conduited attacks. Other modules have similar tradeoffs between performance and interoperability/security.
I do not give even the slightest inkling of a shit try to confirm or deny this, so I’m just going to assume it’s 100% true, because it’s not relevant to the point that the spec is absolute trash and being sold for $800. If you are not absolutely married to privacy, this is not a sellable product in 2025.
Want better specs? We either need SoC companies to release more of their drivers open source, or more people to patiently reverse engineer closed source ones.
Actually, if I want better specs, I’m just going to go out and buy a phone that isn’t from Purism. It really sucks that it’s not open, private hardware, but Purism is such a scummy company that so wantonly fucks over their customers that I wouldn’t touch the Librem 5 even if I could justify spending $800 for that spec just for privacy’s sake.
Does it…work yet? Last I heard phone calls were dodgy…
It works well enough to use as a daily driver on Bookworm and Trixie (and some other distros) but would only recommend if you’re ok with Linux, and either are a developer or don’t mind some rough parts around the edges.
E.g. some carriers uses 2 APNs, one for internet and one for MMS. You can send/receive on both, but the router is not yet complete, so if you send/receive media or use a group chat via text, need to switch to MMS mode in settings to do so first, then switch back to internet. Not an issue on most carriers as they only have 1 APN, but an edge case for the ones that do have this configuration.
Yeah, that’s a really rough edge, but also…if it doesn’t apply to you… 🤔
Good to hear that it’s a potential option, if you do your research.
For which one? so far both are option outside iOS and android
Either one, I mean Linux mobile in general
C2 works on sailfish linux
Sailfish’s GUI is proprietary. I’d rather have a fully FOSS system (or rather, however much is possible).
Fair point
What’s C2?
From the link I pasted https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone
Pixels are inferior to even the cheapest android phones out there. I have a two year old Motorola stylus that cost $100 and battery life is still over two days and I’ve dropped it a million times. Evey pixel I’ve owned had major issues with screen or battery life not worth the price when google can’t handle making reliable hardware. Plus I have a headphone Jack.
I mean everyone has anecdotal evidence to “prove” their point… I have a Pixel 7a that still lasts 2 days and I’ve dropped it a million times and the screen hasn’t cracked. It’s also 2+ years old.
Likewise, Pixel 6 with similar track record but nearing 4 years. Plus it sits on my motorcycle handlebars for 18000km+ so it’s hardly been coddled.
This all just makes me so sad about the future of phones. What a shit set of decisions we have coming up.
We had a 4a (battery life) and 5a (sudden screen failure). Both failed just after warranty lapsed. The 5a made it just outside the extended screen warranty period. These are well documented issues and I’ve read about issues with newer gens as well. It just doesn’t make any sense not to support cheaper phones when it comes to custom roms because you’re voiding the warranty on it. With the pixels track record of poor quality I’d rather not risk $1k+ just to run custom firmware.
pixels battery life is lacking, but they sacrificed that for an AI-spy ware machine anyways.
This is the risk of “trusted computing” architectures. Who is governing the “trusted” part of that.
These cryptographic signatures are not as much of a death knell for Android as some would have you believe. The trick is to get a common code signing cert into your device, that is then used to sign any third party APK you want to run. You can avoid the Google tax this way. I assume that’s how most sideloading sites and apps are going to handle this.
The question is, how do you add that certificate? Is it easy and straight forward (with plenty of scary warnings), as a user? Or is it going to be a developer options deal? Or will I need root to add the cert?
I’m not sure what that answer is right now.
I just want to finish this post with a few words about trusted computing models. Plainly: Apple has been doing this for years … That’s why you download basically everything from an app store with Apple. Whether on your Mac OS device, your iPhone, iPad or whatever iDevice… Whether the devs need to sign it, or the app gets signed when it lands on the store, there’s a signature to ensure that the app hasn’t been tampered with and that Apple has given the app it’s security blessings, that it is safe to run. Microsoft and Google have both been climbing towards the same forever. Apple embedded their root of trust in their own proprietary TPM which has been included with every Mac, and iDevice for a long ass time. Google also has a TPM, the Titan security module, I believe that was introduced around pixel 3? Or 4?.. Microsoft made huge waves requiring it for Windows 11, and we all know what that discussion looks like. Apple requires a TPM (which they supply, so nobody noticed), Google has been adding a TPM and TPM functionality to their phones for years, and now Windows is the same. None of this is a bad thing. Trusted computing can eliminate much of the need for antivirus software, among other things. I digress. We’ve been going this way for a long time. Google is just more or less, doing what Apple has already done, and what Microsoft will very likely do very soon, making it a requirement. Battlefield 6 I think, was one of the first to require trusted computing on Windows and it will, for damned sure, not be the last that does. The only real hurdle here is managing what is trusted. So far, each vendor has kept the keys to their own kingdoms, but this is contrary to computing concepts. Like the Internet, it should be able to be done without needing trust from a specific provider. That’s how SSL works, that’s how the Internet works, that’s how trusted computing should work. The only thing that should be secret is the private signing keys. What Google, Apple, and Microsoft should be doing, is issuing intermediary keys that can sign code signing certs. So trusted institutions that create apps, like… Idk, valve as an example, can create a signature key for steam and sign Steam with it, so the trust goes from MS root to intermediary key for valve, to steam code signing key, and suddenly you have an app that’s trusted. Valve can then use their key to sign software on their store that may not have a coffee signing key of it’s own. This is just one example based on Windows. And above all of this, the user should be able to import a trusted code signing cert, or an intermediary cert signing cert, to their service as trusted.
Anyways, thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
You’re pissed about it? Visit here: https://opencollective.com/postmarketOS
IMHO that’s our best shot. Totally Google free, mainstream Linux kernel.
just installed lineageos with root because of this, so thanks Google i guess
how is it so far?
very seamless, official lineage builds work amazing.
only hiccups ive had are play integrity, i really didnt want to root but i have to in order to hide authy and similar apps that throw a fit. ended up installing magisk and im all green for now
other issue is losing sony sidesense, since i have an Xperia 5 III and it’s 21:9, being able to pull down the notification drawer without reaching all the way up there was great. ill live with the alternatives that come with android for now though until i find out what is a real replacement
nice :D
If they only cared about thwarting malware they could have just relied on code signing via public certificate authorities, like with binaries on Windows.
