the us had talent?
Yeah, they gave em all a green card to identify them
Because American science was doing awesome before the cuts? If you had talked to any postdoc pretty much anywhere in the country during the Biden years about how much they’re making or how they felt about their career prospects, the answers you got were not optimistic. This is worse but I’m increasingly cranky of people acting like everything was humming along smoothly until the more obvious destruction started.
Hey guys, how’s addressing the replication crisis going? Anything? 🦗 🦗
I mean yeah the working conditions in American labs have been absolutely appalling for decades, but they were nevertheless exploiting those postdocs to produce some really good science. I dunno if it’s just in my field but when I was still in academia a few years ago it really stood out how many deeply original, creative, groundbreaking papers were coming from US institutions. Mostly from international researchers obviously, that’s how it is everywhere in the west. But it seems you really will lose that now.
but they were nevertheless exploiting those postdocs to produce some really good science
Were they though? Most of this “good science” was serving private interests in accumulating more profit rather than actually accomplishing something societally meaningful. They were producing science sure but was it doing anything? Making crops and medicine and technology that nobody can afford or use isn’t really good science regardless of what the potential benefits could be
Yeah, idk anything about crops so I can’t comment on that. Except to say that I think we’ll still need food after the revolution.
But a lot of fundamental research is so far away from any kind of application I don’t think you can even say that it’s producing technology that people can’t afford, it’s not really producing anything but knowledge. And sure there’s an argument that we should focus resources on helping people rather than discovery for the sake of it but… It’s really a small amount in the scheme of things, I don’t feel it’s really fair to criticise while there is so much wasted on military and police etc.
Real science is like art, it takes place inside the political context and is constantly oppressed and shaped by it, but sometimes people do still manage to do work which isn’t in support of it. A lot of the natural sciences are like that, yes they attract funding because capitalists think they may be able to exploit it but most of it will never really be exploitable and it is often incredibly beautiful if you are someone who sees it that way.
Also, do you think e.g. climate science is not worth doing? I think it would be short sighted to say that just because we already know the climate is going to fuck us up we should stop trying to find out exactly what will happen…
If they move to Europe they’ll still be serving the Empire. No big deal.
It’s too late for that they already fucked up.
The future of America is a small loyal fascist middle class and the elites. Then the rest of Americans will see degradation of society and culture that creates the conditions where cheap labor can be had domestically. The elites realized they don’t need a prosperous and happy populace, that’s expensive. They need people to work cheaply in factories and to stop questioning them.
It’s short sighted for sure, but that’s where America is going. I’m leaving first chance I get, I don’t care about the US, let it collapse without me.
I don’t think the elites are realizing anything, they are just stumbling into contradictions. Capitalism needs to constantly prop itself back up after its contradictions threaten to blow up the project. It’ll need to do this again in dramatic ways soon.
I largely agree, and it may be a necessary result of a transition to an increasingly financialized stage of capitalism in the west. Back when industrial capitalists ran things, they had a fairly well developed understanding of how things like supply chains and factories worked. They knew what it takes to spin up production for a product, do design, testing, and so on. Now, things are run by people who predominantly deal with abstract numbers on spreadsheets, and they have little understanding of what’s involved in material production.
Yes you can definitely see this in the (lack of) forceful response to Trump damaging industrial capital via tariffs and violence on immigrants. That group is hoping to be paid off or are at monopoly phase and are hoping to buy off failing companies. But they clearly have minimal influence compared to finance capital, which is making a bundle.
I think elites are kinda aware but they don’t really give a shit because they’re 60+ years old and will be long retired or dead by the time the consequences of their actions really kick in
The US is barreling toward open fascism, and the consequences for its talent pool will be catastrophic. Educated professionals are precisely the people who find this political shift most intolerable and who also happen to be the ones with the means to leave. Historically, the U.S. has compensated for its weak domestic education system by poaching global talent. But as the country becomes an increasingly unattractive destination, that pipeline will collapse.
Meanwhile, domestic talent can’t fill the gap given the current state of the US education system. On top of that, a wave of retirements among scientists and engineers is already thinning the ranks. The cracks are already forming with Raytheon recently having to recall retired engineers because no one left in the workforce knows how to produce missiles anymore. It’s the inevitable result of a system that prioritized short-term exploitation over long-term investment. When the talent leaves and the retirees aren’t replaced, the decline will accelerate.
This is what kills me. Like why are all employers so picky, so gatekeepy, yet there’s a skills gap? Like just admit you’re not hiring and stop the narrative of any skills gap.
I imagine a large part of it comes down to stock market dynamics. Companies always want to look like they’re growing and doing well to keep their stock price up. Admitting they’re not hiring is a sign that they’re not showing growth, and so they try to hide that. It’s the similar situation with companies using AI as cover to mask layoffs. They can’t admit that they need to cut people, so they mask it by saying they’re becoming more efficient thanks to AI tooling.
The educated people in the west dont really have anywhere to go. Most people have China anti-authoritarian brain worms plus casual racism so I dont see that being a major hub for them. I think about the bourgeois intellectuals like Timothy Snyder who went to fucking Canada of all places to escape fascism. But I get it when youre analysis of fascism is all about aesthetics and ignoring the link between liberalism and fascism.
Thats not to say China or the global south are doomed, as they will just educate and cultivate their own populations. Its just the masses of the global north that will suffer.
I dont think the reddit ideology is necessarily the thing that will stop people as much as the language barrier. We learn European languages growing up and they use mostly the same script so it’s easier for people to imagine moving to Europe. I think Korea is interesting in that sense too because Hangul is pretty easy to learn even if the Korean language itself is not. So I have heard of a bunch of (non Korean) techies moving out there too. Being able to read and write a language even if speaking is difficult for you makes life in another country infinitely easier. If teaching Chinese was more common in schools i bet wed see more migration intrest
The language barrier is definitely a problem, but it’s also worth remembering that a lot of top scientists in US are ethnically Chinese. There’s already been numerous cases of high profile scientists moving to China, and the trend will only accelerate as a result of growing sinophobia. Each expert leaving to China is a big deal because they bring their expertise with them.
I dont disagree with you there. I think here we are talking about people who grew up in the US and what they would do. Maybe that is a bad assumption on my part. I guess there are some smaller number of 2nd or 3rd gen Chinese people who grew up learning Chinese and may have an easier time immigrating to China than anyone else would.
I do think that educated people who won’t have interest in moving to the global south will likely still choose to leave the US and move to other global north countries. That’s still going to cause harm to US tech sector in the long run.
But also a chance for their former coworkers to be hired there
If you’re looking to get out fast, and you only speak English, where do you go that isn’t fascist? Genuine question
Ireland is like the only English-speaking country that isn’t cooked. Possibly NZ as well. Immigration is somewhat difficult for either (basically average difficulty for “western” countries) so might be easier to just learn a second language & leave the “west” entirely.
Even if educated people start moving to other global north countries, that’s still a problem for the US. Meanwhile, it’s also worth remembering that a lot of people in STEM are immigrants to the US from the global south. They may leave the west entirely and go back to their home countries where there is growing demand for their skills. Meanwhile, China has already largely caught up in terms of education. Chinese universities are taking top spots in global ranking, China is now producing both higher quantity and quality of research than the US, and China has far more STEM graduates. I’d argue we’ve already hit the inflection point where Chinese technological progress is outpacing the US in most areas.
They need people to work cheaply in factories
That’s a strange way of spelling “call centers and fast food joints”
That consumerist culture requires a large consumer class, bigger than just elites and some petty bourgs, you need a working class with at least some disposable income. Now that america is losing that I think they are gunning for some kind of techno-feudalism where manufacturing is brought back but like in the shittiest way possible.
Bringing back manufacturing, but with no planning and no investment
Wouldn’t be surprised if someone comes up with an app for backyard pig steel smelting or basement auto transmission assembly.
Thats right now but the long term goal is cheap third world style production
Production is the ideal that some delusional people like Bannon hold. But really the overall goal is just cheap third world under-employment. Every single person who sells their labour for a living being on the same level of a tenant farmer, while still paying into the system like they are a prosperous industrial middle class.
Whether people make shirts or odd jobs for a living doesn’t really matter.
Why? What advantage does that provide over the current setup?
It addresses the concerns of chud boomers who are upset that “we used to make things in this country”, who make up like 80% of the fascist base.
So nothing that matters or influences strategic policy
The elites realized they don’t need a prosperous and happy populace, that’s expensive.
Oh they’re already lost, kids can’t read anymore
Adults aren’t much better lmao
54% of adults can read at a 6th grade level, checkmate commies.
Somebody post that tweet about literacy being a communist tool
They won’t be lost, they’ll be working overseas.
Good. We know the US can’t be trusted with science or technology.
China has an opportunity to do the funniest thing ever
Actually China is already trying to take advantage of the situation and offer positions to American scientists.
But read my comment here - the Chinese academia is way harsher for foreigners to survive the environment and work culture. Most Americans are probably more suited to the more relaxed European academic culture than in China.
China’s academic work culture is even worse than the US? Fuck
If you have a chance to talk to Chinese grad students or postdocs, just ask them about what it’s like back in the country.
idk how much they’ll do, Xi won’t even fulfil every mutual aid post on here
I mean they could do some fast track for residency for Western academics
“请我需要将学金”
