Weirdest thing for me was when I recently listened to a radio program where an expert in Vietnamese culture and history talked about the Vietnam War and how the Vietnamese feel and think about the American part of it and almost universally they are all like “meh, we have dealt with worse”
Meanwhile it seems like the American consciousness think of the Vietnam War as almost a national scar akin to 9/11.
It is of course a simplification of what was talked about in that program, but it really stuck with me how over it the Vietnamese were because they have dealt with injustices far worse than that war and besides America became their ally later so why even worry about that?
Really shows you the differences in mindset. Americans hold on to the past like it’s a lifeline while most other places we kinda just deal with shit and move on. I for one hold no grudges against Germany and my country has mostly forgotten or moved on from occupations and other historical wars because there were so many of those and everybody fought everybody in Europe back in the day so whatever man. Moving on. We technically have a tradition where we are supposed to put candles in the windows on the day we were freed from the Germans. My dad is old enough to remember that day and how people ran through the street with our flag and yelled “the Germans have surrendered”.
But today most people forget to put candles in the windows and life has moved on. We do remember what the war was and what it meant, but we just don’t feel the need to hold on to it like that.
If ww2 had happened to America the same way it happened to Europe, they would have made it they whole identity and pissed and moaned about it still. We would never hear the end of it. Instead they got to spend a few decades gloating about how awesome they were and how they saved the world from the nazis, lol.
“You would all speak German right now if it wasn’t for us” completely ignoring the fact that a good number of European countries speak German and a many others learn German in school for practical reasons.
We in Europe have a history spanning thousands of years, so we can be generous with it. We all have learned our lessons, and the point that keeping a grouch is pointless is one of them. The US has, in comparison, basically no history, so they kling to what they have.
I remember a couple of American tourists getting off a tourist ship in Cologne. Them, having no clue where they were, they asked “What is this building?”, and we told them that this is the Cologne Cathedral, and it is 750 years old (yes, this was a few years ago). Their reply: “No building can be that old!”…
“You would all speak German right now if it wasn’t for us”
I’ve heard similar about Spanish. Just more xenophobic attitudes.
Part of it is americans cant cope with losing, because they are overwhelmingly little bitches.
I feel like fragility and dominance go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly. Somehow both perpetrator and victim.
Well, its kind of my favorite thing about sociopaths: when theyre shitty and abusive, they dont usually need to contrive a justification. So few of them need to say ‘no, that horrible thing i did was good actually’ even if they’re more likely to start doing horrible shit. It’s why i say theyre typically better people than americans.
Meanwhile it seems like the American consciousness think of the Vietnam War as almost a national scar akin to 9/11.
That’s because it was the first widely televised war we had ever seen plus it was right in the middle of the Civil rights movement. So a war we lost during a major era of change that influenced American attitudes about warfare and civil rights. It left internal scars
Really shows you the differences in mindset. Americans hold on to the past like it’s a lifeline while most other places we kinda just deal with shit and move on.
Well the majority of ppl who remember the Vietnam War are still alive. Considering veterans from Vietnam have health complications from agent orange no one is forgetting anytime soon. Western Europe hasn’t had a major war in almost 80 years
If ww2 had happened to America the same way it happened to Europe, they would have made it they whole identity and pissed and moaned about it still. We would never hear the end of it.
This is just a long winded attempt to complain about Americans. Europeans are exactly the same as Americans. You both carry a smug sense of superiority. The only difference is Americans are louder about it. Just look at attitudes about the war in Ukraine or whenever there’s a terrorist attack in western Europe compared to anywhere in the global south. Both act like they’re the center of the world. Plus its kinda hard to gloat about 2 World Wars that you started in the first place. Only reason it was a world war in the first place is because Europeans felt so superior that they went around colonizing everyone because they were better than everyone else and forced them to get involved
Grouping Europe (or America) together as one can be corrupt in some situations, but I don’t believe it is accurate to mention the entire of Europe when talking about colonisation. There is a big part of the continent of Europe that never had anything to do with colonisation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colonies
You are right that Europeans and American’s are very similar in some areas, for one that might have to do with the fore mentioned colonisation of America. Heck America has been doing a digital take over of the world, which Europeans are just (or a couple years ago) realising it is in our best interest ot create our own alternatives.
But there are tons of differences as well, for one, that America is a country and Europe is a continent. Which isn’t even all united. The EU only has 27 states and a couple that want to be, while Europe has 51 countries. That is not that important when talking about culture, to be fair. You can see a lot of cultural differences when looking into company culture, work ethics, how people pay, sharing meals/receipts or things like sports, but also on the sense of the military and how nationalistic people are. All of the above are also different between different European countries, some might have similar things regarding sports or things that are centrally arranged like payment methods/platforms, but others are vastly different between countries. The Fresh are generally a very nationalistic people, while the Dutch are more or less the opposite.
Edit: where are you from?
i bet Vietnamese actual veterans woukd be more bitter
From what I’ve heard; no. Remember: a lot of these guys fought the french, a lot of the officers and old hands had fought the japanese. This was not their first go around with imperialist shit heads.
Americans genuinely cannot cope with losing. Especially to communists who didn’t all have shoes.
That applies to most conflicts since WWII. Name one since then we really won. Not that its the soldiers fault in any way.
Or Americans in general. When the rich wage war it’s the poor who die.
As a millennial, at no point did we actually want participation trophies. The feeling of coming in last was not changed in the slightest by receiving a junk trophy.
Coming in last was better than coming in second 😔
That’s what fucking pisses me off when people say this. I was born in 1991. As a child WE ALL KNEW PARTICIPATION TROPHIES WERE SILLY. Nobody was like “Oh fuck yeah, that’s right, I won!” We’d all joke about them being participation trophies. When showing my room I’d say “but these are just participation trophies.”
It’s meant to hurt us by making us angry. It works because it makes our goal look stupid. It puts you on the defensive, and makes you want to explain why your opinion is valid, even though you didn’t do anything wrong. It’s as rude as slapping someone in the face. I wish my culture would abandon this cruelty.
I had them in little league soccer and I knew they were BS lol. Made no damn sense because my parents were just like what are we gonna do with this junk?
It was never about the kids, it was about the boomer parents that got jealous seeing other kids with trophies around other petty boomer parents
And the boomer shrinks who were a bit too laser focused on self esteem during the 80s and 90s
I am a worse person having been the focus of my schools mental health people. They cared so deeply for my self esteem, but couldn’t see that hollow victories in the remedial track was making me miserable. They kept telling me that it didn’t matter because I would be able to find employment this way. My only value was as a replaceable cog and they were confused why I was depressed.
Yo you could post that in showerthoughts. That’s such an insightful take.
Are there also shitterthoughts?
I have those right next to my shower thoughts.
Trophies were forced upon us. I didn’t even like the idea of getting a trophy if I won. I won, neat, I don’t need a gold-colored plastic guy hitting a baseball to help me remember that 2-1 game against another collection of school children.
I certainly didn’t need a wood cutout of me posing on home plate. It was tee-ball, I stopped playing after six months.
It was tee-ball, I stopped playing after six months.
I played t-ball. I struck out in every at-bat … in t-ball. Fortunately I excelled at defense: coach put me in right field and the other teams were so scared of me they never hit the ball there.
I was the opposite. I could absolutely destroy the ball at bat, but I would literally sit in left field and pick grass.
I never got a trophy for anything, but I did like the medal I got for my first wrestling win… it wasn’t, like, any big thing, but we were against a specific school that has a good program, it was my first year, I was the only girl on the team… and I won by techfall.
It was definitely a participation trophy of sorts, but it actually felt ok to get. It was engraved to read “for beating your [school] opponent, and first win”
We, as a team, lost to them. Badly.
Getting a tech for your first win, especially in a match where your team got crushed is a big deal, especially for a new athlete. I wouldn’t call anything about that a participation trophy.
In fact, one of my proudest memories as a HS wrestler was losing by one in a dual meet against our rivals where the coaches asked me to wrestle up two weight classes and my goal was “don’t get teched or pinned.” I lost, but I did my part and the team won (so the inverse of your sitch). I would say that an individual win and team loss or an individual loss but team win are both worth celebrating. That’s one of my favorite things about wrestling is that you can have a good day regardless of who the team is facing or how everyone else does.
Thanks, that means a lot to me :) I’ve definitely always viewed it as a participation trophy of sorts, but you’re right; my team was absolutely over the moon for me.
I always liked wrestling for the same reason, it’s an individual sport with camaraderie. Two chances to feel like a winner! Did it for 6 years, was a good time.
They expected me to treasure that bullshit too. Kept my seventh-place ribbons in a box for ten years until I threw them the fuck out
…i got honorable mention in the history fair in fourth grade; i think i still have the ribbon in a box…
It was the Boomers who “needed” and forced these trophies on their kids (in the same way they forced sports on some of us) because their fragile egos needed their kids to be “successful” in a useless and arbitrary way.
It felt worse. Getting a recognition certificate or a white ribbon for coming fourth was a total bummer to my care-factor for participating. Kick a kid while they’re down and they’re not likely to be motivated.
I personally never cared about them, usually lost them on my way home
Right I didn’t want to be there anyway.
20 years later my moms like, “don’t you want your old trophies?” I said no. Those are your trophies.
I cared about the ones I actually won
Thats understandable. I don’t think I actually won any.
You forgot the punctuation!
From now on I refuse refuse to use them I understand that this will make written communication exponentially harder in my private and work life Alas I won’t
Vietnam hats aren’t trophies. They’re badges of survivors. They know they lost. They were fucked by our govt while they were there, they got their asses kicked and then came home to a population that didn’t see them as heroes like previous soldiers has experienced. Everything about that war was a shit show and it’s no surprise so many of those vets couldn’t transition back into civilian life.
And yet they vote for a party and administration who would and will gleefully send people into the same situation again without hesitation.
On this specific point, I’d say that neither side seemed poised to pull that again. GOP has historically kicked off the biggest conflicts, but Trump’s rhetoric and even his first term seemed consistent with “it’s not worth risking American military over foreign crap” in a break from the broader GOP.
His second term seems to have shifted that and you can see it as it fractured his base, to the point where Trump supporters threw “America First” in his face and he petulantly declared HE gets to decide what “America First” means because he "invented’ it.
Yeah I know people who justified their vote for him because “he won’t fuck around with wars in other countries, he’s a great negotiator”. Imagine their surprise when Trump turns out to not be what they wanted shockedpikachu.jpg
I know at least one who was very proud of his war crimes, and I do mean very specific things he did and told to me as a child. I hope they never take away his antipsychotics.
And many came back with serious health and mental problems too! I know I was married 2 Vietnam vets. The fought and suffered for their government.
Also Boomers: Not actually doing anything for veterans suffering from PTSD, mental illness more broadly, poverty and homelessness.
“Well it’s not MY fault they shot some Vietnamese kid in the face and now have nightmares and a paralyzing fear of fireworks. Guess they should have thought about that before getting drafted.”
/S
You forgot the part about Dying in Vietnam, that’s the reason that they aren’t getting the support that they need.
Also Boomers in the 80s: “Let’s give kids participation trophies!”
I feel like there’s a meme to be made about trump wanting a peace prize, while bombing other countries, while hating participation trophies, but also thinking he deserves one just for being president …
I mean Obama and Henry Kissenger got Nobel Peace Prizes.
You’re not wrong, but like, ouch.
They are wrong, for the premise is wrong. Being open about the trauma they suffered is no participation trophy. Being a veteran of a war is a burden and not an achievement.
“I raped and murdered innocent people I’m the victim”
Most did not. Your peers did that too. Doesn’t mean all of you are guilty. You are a redditor/fedditor you are part of a subgroup containing femizidic incels.
If you see a vietnam vet and immediately think rapist you might have other issues.
I’m almost got mad until i saw what community i was in
I couldn’t name anyone I knew who actually went through the shit of Vietnam and wore one of those hats proudly.
They were exclusively for the ranks of the Texas Air National Guard, the straight up draft dodgers who wanted to look cool with their chud friends, and the handful of sociopaths who thought burning down people’s homes was cool.
I have a relative that was in Nam and wears that hat, but he claims he was POG. I have another relative who lied about his age to get into Nam, who definitely was in the shit, and he doesn’t wear the hat.
O O F
Big O O F
They’re still convinced they got cheated out of victory by liberals.
I mean if you look at the restriction on targets you might come to that conclusion. The US restricted any airstrikes on railyards, airfields, SAM sites could only be targeted if they shot first, and anything in a 30mile radius around Hanoi. These restrictions were only removed 7 years into the war, and there were still restriction on the ground war and targets there. McNamara is directly responsible for these restrictions and the 57000 American lives that could have lived if we didn’t hanper our own warfighting at every turn.
Yet another ‘stabbed in the back’ myth…
Side note, I highly recommend the podcast episode of Between The Covers where Dao Strom is interviewed about her collection of poetic fragments You Will Always Be Someone From Somewhere Else. It gives some really interesting perspective on Vietnam and the wake of the Vietnam war especially as a counterpoint to the incomplete US perspective that is still only interested in certain stories about Vietnam and about Vietnamese.
https://tinhouse.com/podcast/dao-strom-you-will-always-be-someone-from-somewhere-else/
