That’s like saying we need to get rid of all color names since there are so many hues and shades. What are chartreuse and fuchsia? Better just get rid of green and purple since there are so many colors.
The difference is you don’t need to identify someone’s color or commit a social faux pas. Keep your color names, I just don’t want to have to figure out if you are green or lime green and address you as such.
It’s not necessarily a social faux pas to misgender someone, that’s a myth made up by conservatives. It’s a faux pas to intentionally misgender people.
Sorta like if you call someone Jeb and they correct you and say it’s Jed. It only becomes an issue if you insist on calling them Jeb.
Fair, but I don’t want every social interaction I have to be me messing up and apologizing to people that I have missgendered them. That sounds way more exhausting than current social interactions are for me, and I already find them exhausting.
I hear you saying you you would like a universal gender neutral pronoun. You rarely need to know someone’s gender when talking to them, just what pronouns to use.
Fortunately they/them works for this purpose, and is universally understood in English. It’s perfectly acceptable to refer to someone as they/them or their name when having a conversation not specifically about gender and preferred pronouns.
Not knowing someone’s gender has existed far longer than our modern understanding of the nuance of the concept.
It’s not irrelevant to everyone. We have a phrase that allows you to omit them, but that doesn’t mean that everyone wants to do that.
Additionally, having the concept is needed for people to talk about their experiences and figure stuff out.
Their need to describe themselves in conversations that don’t involve you is perfectly sufficient reason to have the words.
“Confuses you” is not a good enough reason to invalidate a core part of people’s identity, particularly when it may have been hard for them to get things figured out.
It’s important to remember that gender is irrelevant, but only if it’s someone else’s. It can be aggravating to be told that something you worked hard to figure out doesn’t matter when it very much matters to you.
I mean it wouldn’t be every social interaction. Not even a majority. Something like 2% of the population identifies as something other than their assigned gender at birth, and the majority of those are transgender individuals who make it very clear how they want to be referred to.
Understand that these people will continue to have the same gender identity whether you understand it or not. The alternative to apologizing to people when you misgender them is… not apologizing for it.
Yeah today. But we know gender is a made-up category now. And already it’s starting to diverge. I can easily imagine 20 years from now there being like 50 different genders, and the amount of people who don’t associate with men or women will be much greater.
You do that already, and it’s even worse actually because everyone has an even more individual and sometimes difficult to remember thing about them you have to balance in a social situation. It’s called a name. You have to be told it, you can easily forget it, and it’s a social slight to call someone the wrong name. Right now gender expression feels uncomfortable to have to tell people because of the politisation and stigma pressed on it, but it doesn’t have to be anything different than asking for someone’s name to better address them.
Yeah but I’m okay with names. I’m not okay with genders. At a bare minimum to interact with people in society, you need to know a name, some kind of identifier. If I knew of a way around that I would suggest it. However, interacting with people in society does not require knowing their gender. At least now it doesn’t require it as it’s pretty clear that gender is a made-up category.
That’s like saying we need to get rid of all color names since there are so many hues and shades. What are chartreuse and fuchsia? Better just get rid of green and purple since there are so many colors.
All we need are hex codes and rgb!
What if I want violet?
I’m giving this the #00ff00 light
My gender is 0xffffff
Actually no, that’s not what they said. They said sure you can have green, but not everything has to be green, blue, or red.
Also, purple is a lie.
The difference is you don’t need to identify someone’s color or commit a social faux pas. Keep your color names, I just don’t want to have to figure out if you are green or lime green and address you as such.
It’s not necessarily a social faux pas to misgender someone, that’s a myth made up by conservatives. It’s a faux pas to intentionally misgender people.
Sorta like if you call someone Jeb and they correct you and say it’s Jed. It only becomes an issue if you insist on calling them Jeb.
Fair, but I don’t want every social interaction I have to be me messing up and apologizing to people that I have missgendered them. That sounds way more exhausting than current social interactions are for me, and I already find them exhausting.
I hear you saying you you would like a universal gender neutral pronoun. You rarely need to know someone’s gender when talking to them, just what pronouns to use.
Fortunately they/them works for this purpose, and is universally understood in English. It’s perfectly acceptable to refer to someone as they/them or their name when having a conversation not specifically about gender and preferred pronouns.
Not knowing someone’s gender has existed far longer than our modern understanding of the nuance of the concept.
Yes, this is what I mean. I am fine with they/them. I don’t need to know anyone’s specific pronouns or gender.
But if no one needs to know anyone’s specific pronouns or gender, then why have it as a concept other than as a niche topic of discussion?
It’s not irrelevant to everyone. We have a phrase that allows you to omit them, but that doesn’t mean that everyone wants to do that.
Additionally, having the concept is needed for people to talk about their experiences and figure stuff out.
Their need to describe themselves in conversations that don’t involve you is perfectly sufficient reason to have the words.
“Confuses you” is not a good enough reason to invalidate a core part of people’s identity, particularly when it may have been hard for them to get things figured out.
It’s important to remember that gender is irrelevant, but only if it’s someone else’s. It can be aggravating to be told that something you worked hard to figure out doesn’t matter when it very much matters to you.
I mean it wouldn’t be every social interaction. Not even a majority. Something like 2% of the population identifies as something other than their assigned gender at birth, and the majority of those are transgender individuals who make it very clear how they want to be referred to.
Understand that these people will continue to have the same gender identity whether you understand it or not. The alternative to apologizing to people when you misgender them is… not apologizing for it.
Yeah today. But we know gender is a made-up category now. And already it’s starting to diverge. I can easily imagine 20 years from now there being like 50 different genders, and the amount of people who don’t associate with men or women will be much greater.
You do that already, and it’s even worse actually because everyone has an even more individual and sometimes difficult to remember thing about them you have to balance in a social situation. It’s called a name. You have to be told it, you can easily forget it, and it’s a social slight to call someone the wrong name. Right now gender expression feels uncomfortable to have to tell people because of the politisation and stigma pressed on it, but it doesn’t have to be anything different than asking for someone’s name to better address them.
Yeah but I’m okay with names. I’m not okay with genders. At a bare minimum to interact with people in society, you need to know a name, some kind of identifier. If I knew of a way around that I would suggest it. However, interacting with people in society does not require knowing their gender. At least now it doesn’t require it as it’s pretty clear that gender is a made-up category.