• lennybird@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    It simply is true. Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.

    But do tell what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished, relative to Democrats for the working class.

    Have you even heard of Nader or Perot?

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      9 months ago

      what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished

      the prohibition party got a constitutional amendment passed. the republican party completely usurped the whigs.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          9 months ago

          as i said, so-called third parties have been with us much longer and have accomplished things modern politicians could never conceive.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            “never conceive”?

            Tell me, did a third party pass the Civil Rights Act?

            That was pretty inconceivable for the time.

            As was legalizing same sex marriage.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              9 months ago

              the civil rights act was not the work of the democrats or the republicans. it was the work of dedicated activists and, yes, other parties such as the black panther party. they exerted pressure onto the parties in government, and the parties in government acquiesced.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Welcome to what parties are —coalitions of groups, including activists working under a united banner — in this case, the Democrats.

                The Black Panther party wasn’t in Congress; they did not vote on it. They are not a “third party,” in a governing sense.

                But to answer the question directly: Yes, it was the Democrats who both supported and are primarily responsible for its passage.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  9 months ago

                  Yes, it was the Democrats who both supported and are primarily responsible for its passage.

                  … in congress. but they would have never proposed it if the writing weren’t on the wall, if the people in the streets had not made it a matter of import. giving the democrats credit is like giving bank tellers credit for financing bank robbers’ lifestyles.

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    I’m all for people demanding things in the streets. That’s not the same as what you’ve been suggesting, which is to vote third-party. These two things are two entirely different things.

                    Black Panthers didn’t hold legitimate Congressional power like Democrats. So again, thank Democrats in Congress for passing it. Something you risk spoiling by letting Republicans get into office.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              9 months ago

              nethier the civil rights act nor the legalization of same sex marriage is as concrete as a constitutional amendment, which is itself part of the constitution, and determines whether other laws are constitutional.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      9 months ago

      Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.

      so? that doesn’t prove that so-called third parties are impotent. it shows that one person made some questionable decisions.

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        “Questionable decisions,” said the individual who had to dig back 100 years to find an example of any tangible progress made by such a 3rd-party…?

        I think I’ll go with the party that actually has a track-record of progress this half-century.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Clear, substantive tangible records speaks nothing to the issue at hand that is discussing whether third-parties actually do anything…?

            Huh?

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              9 months ago

              https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/9218081

              you will see that the issue is the provability of whether so-called third parties can achieve anything, and whether it’s provable that voting for them has supported a “greater evil”. i have demonstrated the success of so-called third parties, and its prima facie impossible to prove a counterfactual.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                I have proved both of these things. Both With Nader and Perot, as well as showing the difference in actual progressive advancements between third-parties in Democrats is so great that there is little point in supporting a third-party — especially when the FPTP system mathematically goes against them.

                But any time you want to make a bet a 3rd-party candidate winning versus one of the two primary parties, I’ll happily take that bet on money.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  9 months ago

                  any time you want to make a bet a 3rd-party candidate winning versus one of the two primary parties

                  this is a red herring and doesn’t address the substance of our disagreement at all

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    It’s not really a red-herring; it’s simply putting money where your mouth is.

                    It’s putting weight behind your words, and it proves my point.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  9 months ago

                  I have proved both of these things.

                  you literally cannot prove a counterfactual, so claiming you have reeks of intellectual dishonesty

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    It’s a fact that 3rd-party lose universally all of their elections while often spoiling elections for the primary party that most-closely shares their interests. This is not a counter-factual; this is not Ad Ignorantiam.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      9 months ago

      Have you even heard of Nader or Perot

      yes, and i also know that their candidacy had nothing to do with who won the two elections they are (erroneously) credited with spoiling.

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        They’re (accurately) credited with spoiling said elections and it is yet another example of the complete toothless value of 3rd-parties.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          9 months ago

          any amount of research will show that, in fact, perot’s candidacy decreased clinton’s margin of victory, and gore won that election.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Any amount of research will, in fact, show that Perot did not win and 3rd-party groups routinely spoil elections without remotely advancing their own agenda they claim to care about.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              9 months ago

              3rd-party groups routinely spoil elections

              no, they don’t. i reject the entire narrative of “spoiling” elections, as it presupposes that one party or another is owed (or owns outright) the votes. they do not. they must earn the votes, and if i so-called third party candidate earns the votes, tehy are not spoiling anything. they are doing what politicians are supposed to do: earn votes.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Historians, scholars, political-scientists all disagree. I won’t argue with the proverbial-equivalent of flat-earthers, for that’s just a denialism too far gone.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  9 months ago

                  he proverbial-equivalent of flat-earthers,

                  this is pigeonholing. you are trying to group me in with a (n unrelated) group of people and dismiss my valid assertions. it’s yet another mark of intellectual dishonesty

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    It’s an apt comparison, reflective of the non-sequitur you’re engaging in. Lacking any substantive rebuttal or sourced rebuttal, it’s a reflection of what I see in flat-earthers.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              9 months ago

              perot’s campaign had a significant impact on the politics of the 90s, transforming the democrats from a party (accused of) supporting welfare to a party of … well… the fucking clintons.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Bernie had an effect on the party too, except he did it in a way that didn’t backfire for progress.

                Bernie understands it’s far easier to take two steps back under Republicans versus maintaining what we’ve got, let alone making progress.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  9 months ago

                  Bernie had an effect on the party too, except he did it in a way that didn’t backfire for progress.

                  if by that, you mean progressing the party to the right, you’re correct. he hasn’t reversed the course of the democrat party at all.

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    He hasn’t? I’m pretty sure universal healthcare is more popular than ever among Democrats; and things like tuition reimbursement would’ve been inconceivable merely 10-years-ago.

                    There is ambiguity in your argument of them creeping to the right.