A district judge in Wisconsin has sided with an 11-year-old trans girl over her use of the girls’ toilets and temporarily blocked school officials from preventing her access.
Good! Republicans need to get over their obsession with trans children’s genitals.
gender neutral bathrooms are the answer here.
most public places have them now, don’t get why you can’t have one in a school.
In places with large crowds, gender neutral bathrooms (assuming you also mean single-use) don’t really work. It causes massive lines.
Not to mention, there’s no need. It’s a bathroom. Why does anyone care who they pee or poop next to? It seems so silly and arbitrary to me. Just get in, do your thing, wash your hands, and get out. haha
We can have gender neutral bathrooms where we have a shared hand-washing area, and individual stalls. Heck, you can even have cameras pointed towards the sink area if people are so afraid of getting harassed in the bathroom. Gender should not matter when you have individual stalls.
Right? I’ve been using public restrooms for a long time and I don’t recall ever seeing anyone’s naughty bits.
…and for me the most ridiculous part of this discussion is that bathrooms have never been a secure space. If some creep wanted to go into a bathroom to harass people, there is literally nothing stopping them. It’s not like bathrooms have guarded entrances and now people have a sneaky way to get into a bathroom by pretending to be transgender or something insane like that.
It’s literally a manufactured issue to get the GOP electorate terrified, as everything they do is designed to do.
I’ve been using public restrooms for a long time and I don’t recall ever seeing anyone’s naughty bits.
I see you’ve never had the misfortune of using the circular trough-style urinal where everyone is facing each other and peeing into the middle. Thankfully, they are not very common.
Oh you know what? I think I did have those in elementary school. That was a while ago though.
From the Horrible Bathroom Hall of Fame, I present the Mathematical Sciences bathroom at the University of Central Florida:
LOL when I first saw the pic you posted I thought the sink in the middle was for communal pissing
Lol! Those are meant for washing your hands, not for pissing. Although I guess I can imagine a scenario where some genius thinks one is a urinal and somehow the idea catches on. Still pretty funny though.
The best compromise for neutrality and efficiency is to keep gender neutral stalls but also retain an area with urinals which will be much quicker for large numbers of men to pass through then using stalls, and also saves water.
The other consideration would be that the stalls will need to be sufficiently screened that people in them don’t feel overlooked or vulnerable (I’m looking at you USA with your weird gappy stall building!).
I was at a concert at Red Rocks Amphitheatre and they had gender neutral single stall bathrooms with a shared sink area. It was great. Sure, there was a line, but there was going to be one anyway. However, it ensured 100% utilization, when potentially one side would have less than 100% usage when the other has a line. It’s ideal for places with large crowds.
(The stalls were also well built basically single rooms, not the shitty American stalls with gaps in them.)
I’ve never understood why I should care where someone else goes to the bathroom anyways.
I wouldn’t want my boy showing genitals to women on a bathroom. Viceversa too
What world do you live in that you see other people’s genitals in the bathroom? I’ve never had this issue, none of my friends have, and I doubt you could provide any significant proof that is an issue. You just hate trans people. Say the quiet part out loud.
Wait, you mean you don’t just drop trou the second you get into a public bathroom? That’s crazy, my girlfriends and I are always asking strangers to look at our crotches before we pee.
Wait no, that’s never happened once in my 39 years on earth. I’m really curious about what bathrooms republicans are in if loose genitalia is the constant threat they make it out to be.
I think the quiet part that needs to be a bit more out loud is that while all the fingers are pointed at trans people over creeping in the ladies’ room, the resulting ‘bathroom panic’ gives cis men cover to go into the ladies’ bathroom to police who’s trans or not in there and it’s totally not creeping when they do that, nosirreebob
The bigger issue is that it gives perverted and creepy men an open invitation to go in to womens bathrooms by simply saying they identify as a woman.
No men are going in to womens bathrooms to “police” them.
And trans girls/women aren’t just doing that either.
I have never heard a man say “oh darn! I can’t rape her, she made it to the safe zone of the women’s bathroom!”
Are you daft? You can’t be serious right? Creeps aren’t going to be deterred by a door. Trans people just want to use the bathroom and get out as quickly and quietly as possible.
🤦🏼♀️
Maybe teach your boy not to show their genitals to people in the bathroom because that’s actually weird af? I swear the people against this are telling on themselves. You’re a bunch of bathroom perverts and you think it’s normal/everyone does it. Because I have never once in my whole life seen someone’s genitals in a public bathroom. You looking for it or what?
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I don’t know what bathrooms you’ve been in, but nobody is showing anyone anything in the bathroom. In most cases people who are trans use stalls anyways.
Most is not all and source of that statistic?
If you think about it… She wants to use the girl’s toilets. I’d assume there’ll only be stalls.
Careful, logic hurts them
I use most because I can’t definitively say all.
Logically Trans people are in situations where they are going to be in individual stalls.
Like I said, nobody is showing off their genitals in the bathroom. I regret to inform you that you’re doing something wrong if you’re walking into a bathroom with the purpose of exposing yourself to the occupants.
That’s exactly the point. The judge sided with the 11 year old girl so she wouldn’t be forced to use the boys bathroom with your son.
This is some good Accidental Ally material.
As a male, I’ve learned long ago when I step up to a stall next to another dude, I’m not supposed to look at their genitals. As it turns out, dudes don’t like when other dudes look at their junk. As a result, I’ve never had another dude showing me their genitals in a men’s room.
Come to think of it, if I had a choice, I’d probably rather a woman looked at my junk in the bathroom than a dude…
Yeah and that’s the point, to keep it that way. No transsexuals indecently exposing themselves or perving on unconsenting kids or adults on bathrooms. Thanks for agreeing on that.
But if the same happens with men you’re cool with it?
Same equipment and the possibility of accompany to your boi or girl gives you the extra coolness 😎
???
While this is welcome news, it’s also depressing that we live in a timeline stupid enough that bathroom panics are enough of a thing that there are laws on the books like this to be struck down by judges (and of course, the fact that other judges are likely to reverse this ruling).
Would you be ok with 17 year old boys to use the girls toilets at school if they just say that they identify as a girl?
What is the issue you have with it, really? You think that people are going to go into the bathroom and do something nefarious?
Before asking us why we think it’s okay, let’s really drill down into what you’re so worried about.
Well if they aren’t a boy then it wouldn’t matter and I would be fine with my daughter sharing a locker room/bathroom. I’m more worried about her being shot and killed than someone who is trans in the bathroom with her.
People don’t just wake up one day and go “I’m a girl! Hyuk! I’m going to go be a girl just to get in the bathroom! Hyuk!”
People don’t do that, especially trans people. Get your head out of your ass.
When that happens we can talk about why it happened, and how it was handled. But it’s simply not a thing that happens unless it’s some anti-trans activist trying to prove a point!
Two things to ponder if you dont understand why people might answer “yes.”: Boys pissing in public on trees and in bushes is a normal thing, especially among circles expressing concern about a society that acknowledges trans people exist. Boys using toilets is a plus, at all ages. Second: every Porta potty in existence seems to operate with its gender neutrality without the same kind of panic. If you can square these two notions: Boys using a toilet isn’t odd, strange, or worth a moral panic. You might then see your question isn’t about toilets, and about gendered space and how important it is to have spaces that are exclusive and exclusionary based on something like gender, (or even… other things!)
Of course my point is about having separate spaces that are exclusive to the two sexes. Males commit the overwhelmingly large percentage of sex crimes. Giving males free access to women’s safe spaces is not going to end well.
You’re making the unnecessary leap of toilets>sex. And then further to sex>sex crimes. This is why I mentioned portapotties. These are gender neutral public toilets found all over the nation. Are portapotties offensive? Sexual dens?
Toilets and bathrooms are perfectly functional as gender neutral spaces. The insistence that a transperson using the bathroom that aligns with their gender is somehow an invitation for sex crime just doesn’t have much basis.
Portapotties are single person. You’re not walking around in a portapotty with other people. There’s no possibility of someone peeping under/over the stall wall in a portapotty.
Most public toilets are not gender neutral, they’re male and female.
Again - it’s not that the trans person will assault someone, it’s the fact that it eliminates it as a “safe space” where women can go knowing there won’t be men in there. If you let trans women in you’re letting biological men in, meaning any man can now use that space simply by saying they identify as a woman.
Ah, got it. You don’t seem to be parsing between sex and gender here, which is probably why this is going to be a troublesome topic every time it comes up.
I mean you extrapolate from “biological men” into “any man” way too casually to have a serious opinion on this topic.
I mean, jist wait to you hear about this thing called homosexuality. No bathroom will be safe anywhere from anyone if people know about that!
Public toilets are sex based, not gender. They are male and female. They have existed since long before gender “wasn’t a binary”.
A biological female that identifies as a man can’t use the urinals, can they? No, because they don’t have a penis. Toilets have always been made to accommodate the different sexes, not genders.
Yeah you’re right, being trans isn’t even a thing, it’s all just perverted teenage boys who want to… Hear girls pee, I guess?
Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you? If you find sexual gratification being in the same room where members of the opposite gender take a shit in a closed stall, you go ahead and be as pervy as you fucking want with it, but stop projecting your weird scat fetish on everyone else and just let people go to the god damn bathroom.
Why do questions like this always sound like the person asking is just putting a question mark at the end of something they’ve considered doing?
Ah yes, the people that are against letting men in the women’s spaces are the ones that want to go in women’s spaces. Impeccable logic you have there.
Trans women are women, bigot.
I’d imagine that trans women don’t want to use the men’s room because of people like you who consider restrooms to be peeping opportunities.
I’m talking sex, not gender.
Quit the name calling.
Also again with trying to deflect and call the people that want to stop any potential for “peeping opportunities” the ones that are the “peepers” lol. Make it make sense.
Also again with trying to deflect and call the people that want to stop any potential for “peeping opportunities” the ones that are the “peepers” lol.
I don’t want 11 year old girls being forced to use men’s restrooms. Why do you want that so badly?
11 year old biological boys you mean?
Why do you so desparately want biological males to be allowed in to female-only spaces? You’re trying to make out that the people that don’t want biological males in biological female toilets are the creepy ones here and it’s bizarre lol.
Why do you want 11 year old biological girls in the mens toilets with you? Why do you want that so badly?
Good lord they are only 11 years old. Who cares what bathroom they use.
Make them all unisex. If it’s a large facility with a bunch of stalls or a small facility for only one person, make them all unisex.
I went to a club with only one, huge, unisex bathroom once. It was… like any other bathroom. Seeing people of the opposite gender wasn’t really a concern anyways.
Since it was a rather yuge bathroom for a yuge club, if there was any shenanigans going on there would’ve been plenty of witnesses to call it out.
There was even one guy who went piss at a urinal, and started to leave without washing his hands. All the other guys started shouting at the guy to was his hands lol.
Yes. And get rid of that creepy door gap while you’re at it
It’s only America that has pervert friendly toilet gaps.
I hate those gaps
I support this.
To be fair, there is safety in numbers and consequently I also see a benefit to combining them. I’m a dude, and I would rather walk down a busy pedestrian mall than a sketchy half-empty street or an urban trail on a moonless night.
Same thing with bathrooms. I imagine women feel better in a bathroom where other women and other people are present and aware, vs a nearly empty bathroom where a creep could walk in and isolate them at any moment. I’ve been to places with large unisex bathrooms (hot springs, spas, etc.) and there’s enough people in there that no one is gonna try anything stupid/inappropriate without being immediately noticed. Bathroom troublemakers are a small subset of the universally large group of people who have to use the restroom anyway.
I only support gender-segregated bathrooms because I don’t want a bunch of chicks clogging up the mensroom with their slow pissing/shitting/bloody paper towels on the floor. :D I am unreasonable and self-centered, but anyone who has ever been to a concert knows which line is longer.
…so you are going to take away my urinals, my fast turnaround time, and my silence?
In my hypothetical example, when you pictured stalls, you pictured them with only toilets inside. You didn’t even consider that there could be a stall with just a urinal.
You may enjoy sidling to the trough and gazing at your competition, but some of us appreciate not having creeps trying to size us up.
I haven’t seen a trough style urinal in a developed nation in my entire life.
You have never been to a stadium bathroom before?
I’ve seen them in seven States in the US, also on a trip to Canada. I lived in Germany for a while, and used them there - and Austria.
Maybe you should try traveling and open up that closed mind. Expand those horizons.
I travel monthly for work. Last two months I have been to Germany and South East Asia. Maybe I am just not going out of my way to find the most disgusting toliet system, unlike some people I can mention.
They can put urinals in a unisex restroom.
In fact, there are all sorts of things in public restrooms that are unused. For example, the last restroom you visited had a sink where you could have washed your hands.
Your urinal privilege has been pissed away.
Right so how do people plan to sell this? “Hey 49% of the population, we are going to make a basic need more difficult for you and you get nothing in return”.
You don’t have to. Nobody votes on this shit. You just start building buildings with a large number of private, all-gender stalls like we’ve been doing in limited quantities for a long time. And most wouldn’t care that strongly, or might even appreciate the added privacy.
Wow tell me more about this country that has no building codes.
Pretty much only conservatives. They’re actually pretty obsessed with thinking about children being raped in bathrooms.
We need to separate the bathrooms by function!
Number ones on the left number twos on the right!
The obvious solution is to make available an additional bathroom that is universally available to anyone.
Its not, literally all you have to do is not discriminate.
This is like the 4th time the state congress has tried pulling this crap and it keeps getting shot down. Meanwhile they don’t even consider marijuana legislation even though millions of dollars are going to taxes for other states they have it legalized. So stupid.
Really, at 11?
Well, at what age did you start to believe you were cis?
Bigots are incapable of thinking this way. They only see LGBT+ people as “the other” and themselves as “normal”, so they never realize that they themselves at one point figured out their own identity (including both gender and sexuality). They think it’s only LGBT+ folks having to figure those things out.
It’s bizarre, especially since society does push cisgendered and heterosexual norms at a very early age. Young boys will get asked if they like any girls and they’ll constantly be pushed with gender roles and stereotypes for their birth gender. It’s so normalized that most folks don’t even seem to realize that it happens until confronted with the existence of any alternative (like LGBT+ folks). A reasonable person would examine their biases and realize stuff like “huh, I guess I knew my gender from a young age”, but bigots have this irrational hatred for LGBT+ people so they’re not willing or capable of this kind of insight. Their brain has to twist logic into justifying the bigotry that they’ve already concluded on.
Yes? 11 is an age where children often are hitting puberty and if someone is trans, that’s when gender dysphoria would become more pronounced.
It’s sad that the parents allowed this kids identity to be determined by what’s currently relevant in social media.
i guess it must have also been sad when parents allowed kids to identify as sinister. meaning left-handed, of course. one moment, it was rightfully shunned, the next moment sinister people started getting everywhere and it was growing at an alarming rate, threatening to take over society…
…until it hit 12.5%, where it flatlined and stayed ever since. turns out if you don’t bully people into repressing a trait they’re born with, you’ll see a meteoric rise in the amount of people you now accept, when they stop (rightfully) fearing that you’ll repress them. today, it’s beyond trivial that if you think there ever has been a point in history where one eight of all people haven’t been left-handed, you’re just a moron, but your rhetoric would perfectly fit the era when that started to be accepted.
we don’t know exactly how many people are trans, but the sharp rise you see and characterize as “currently relevant in social media” is simply due to society (mostly) letting people finally be who they always have been. realistically, trans people are a minority, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have the same right to be themselves that you and i already enjoy simply for having been born into the majority.
I see no correlation between someone being born left handed and someone who claims to have been born in the wrong body, that’s a bit of a stretch. What’s not a stretch though is that social media has dictated a lot of what is acceptable in society but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a good thing. People can live their lives however they want but it makes no sense that a kid born in this time would have come to this decision on their own without the influence of social media given how much it’s affected our society in the past ten years alone. That’s the problem and thats what makes it hard to understand and justify. Those in support of children changing who they think they are, give them pats on back but for what reason exactly and what cost? How is this a good thing? In my opinion, kids need to grow and learn to be productive members of our society before they should ever start being told “you’re probably not who you are.” It’s silly.
Why don’t you just let people raise their own children, and you can raise yours?
How do you know that to be true?
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I doubt you’ll read these. I’m pretty sure your “wonder” is meant to stay that way permenantly so you can continue to feign ignorance and ask inflammatory questions. Just say you hate trans people already. This coy shit is annoying.
Trans folk still identify as Trans indefinitely in about 94% of cases. Evidence suggests many of the other 6% are bullied, harassed, or threatened as a factor in their changing the way they identify.
Or was that a rhetorical question?
PSA for anyone unaware, the ‘desistance studies’ that conclude that most children with gender dysphoria outgrow it are based on the DMS-IV criteria for gender identity disorder, now renamed to gender dysphoria.
Well, who cares and why does it matter? It matters because in the DSM-IV criteria children literally did not need to identify as another gender to be diagnosed with it. They might as well have called it sissy disorder. Gender nonconforming kids who are cis would get diagnosed with this, and the entire point of therapy was to make them gender conforming and straight. This is so psychologically damaging to kids that it’s banned in many western countries.
So, they take every gender nonconforming kid, the majority of which are cis but a minority are trans, declare they all have the same disorder (doesn’t do gender right disorder), and when the cis kids don’t transition as adults they go “look, this proves you can stop kids from being trans!” and hope you don’t notice the sleight of hand.
On top of what the others have said: at 11 years old, a trans kid is very unlikely to be medically transitioning, and so their transition is entirely social. With that in mind, what is the actual harm to a kid socially exploring trans identity and then later changing their mind? Why would that percentage need to be 100%?
Why does anything need to have a label. Why can’t people just be what they want without prescribing to some socially defined idea
Meanwhile I feel like there’s a much bigger issue going on. 11 years old? Did they even go through puberty yet?
Fair point. In that case, you cannot call anyone a boy or a girl until they hit puberty. You must treat them all as the same gender (or genderless). One bathroom for “children” who haven’t hit puberty and thus clearly don’t have a gender. Then we can have a bathroom each for “boy” and “girl”.
Or… was that not your point? I wonder if I can guess your point?
Why would they need to go through puberty? Did you not know what gender you were before puberty?
Plus, if you figure out you’re trans (or might be trans) that young, you’d usually take puberty blockers explicitly to delay puberty until you’re a bit older and doctors can be more certain, at which point HRT can be started. Puberty blockers are very safe and reversible, unlike puberty (whether natural puberty or HRT puberty).
Puberty blockers are very safe and reversible
This is 100% incorrect btw.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/puberty-blockers-not-so-reversible-after-all/
https://wng.org/roundups/study-effects-of-puberty-blockers-can-last-a-lifetime-1617220389
https://www.transgendertrend.com/nhs-no-longer-puberty-blockers-reversible/
The FDA doesn’t even approve puberty blockers for “gender affirmation”.
You can’t just “pause” puberty and then go through it years later completely unaffected. That’s not how it works.
We need to have a chat about reputable sources…
The sources are irrelevant when they’re simply reporting on findings from reputable publications/scientists/etc.
The NHS now say puberty blockers aren’t “completely reversible”. Ihatejoebiden.com could report on that and it makes no difference to the fact that the NHS says what it says.
The source doesn’t matter, what matters is what they’re reporting.
Well someone needs to have that chat with you, and soon.
Let’s see…
Right-wing rag, right-wing rag that has the phrase “Biblical truth” in its slogan, right-wing rag pushing vaccine conspiracies and transphobia on its front page, aaand… anti-trans hate group.
Your bias is showing.
My “bias” was literally go to google and search, then grab the ones that had studies and scientists/doctors backing them up. The NHS no longer says that puberty blockers are reversible. It doesn’t matter what site reports it, they’re reporting facts.
What I take from this is that you know they’re right, you just want to deflect because you have no actual response.
Nah, you just grabbed whatever shitty articles backed up your existing viewpoint because if you’d bothered to do any actual research you’d have seen that at worst there’s a hell of a lot more nuance than the anti-trans bigotry you spewed all over the thread:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9793415/
https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible
Oh, and please note that my sources are from official government sources and peer-reviewed journals, not transphobic right-wing rags that are pushing agendas.
Took 2 seconds to find this in one of your sources that says that puberty blockers are fully reversible (the health line article):
Although puberty blockers are frequently described as “fully reversible,” more research is needed to fully understand the impact they may have on fertility. There is also little known about the drugs’ lasting effects on brain development and bone mineral density.
So they say they’re fully reversible yet don’t actually know 😂.
From the mayo clinic one:
Use of GnRH analogues also might have long-term effects on:
Growth spurts. Bone growth. Bone density. Fertility, depending on when the medicine is started. If individuals assigned male at birth begin using GnRH analogues early in puberty, they might not develop enough skin on the penis and scrotum to be able to have some types of gender-affirming surgeries later in life. But other surgery approaches usually are available.
How on earth can you look at those “side effects” and come to the conclusion that they’re “fully reversible”? Having an pre pubescent boys micro penis isn’t reversible. Being sterile isn’t reversible. Having early onset osteoporosis isn’t reversible.
Why would they need to go through puberty
Because MASSIVE hormonal and neurological changes happen with puberty.
It’s like the most drastic change of your body and mind that most people will ever experience in their lives.
So the idea is to take someone who knows they’re trans and force permanent irreversible changes on them just for the joy of being cruel to children instead of just forestalling puberty with a reversible treatment.
someone who knows
Call me EXTREMELY skeptical that anyone knows fuck about anything before puberty, let alone their lifelong gender, sexuality, or anything else concerning the things that hormones change.
reversible treatment.
This is a total bullshit statement. We don’t know the long-term effects of puberty blocking, for this particular purpose. There’s plenty of studies that show the bone density is fucked up after, if they choose not to fully transition. Plenty of other side effects that may not be reversible, but we don’t know because it hasn’t been studied enough.
So no. I call bullshit on that.
I wish I were on puberty blockers. I’m not trans btw
What happens when she’ll be 42?
She’ll probably be a regular 42 year old woman?
jej
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Making people feel hopeless is a great use of their efforts. They want power, and to get that power they have to disenfranchise people who don’t disagree with them. So getting people to voluntarily ignore politics because it is (they are) ugly is a valid end result.
Precisely that, to waste time and resources in pursuing the goal of collapsing the functioning of the united states government. It has been the goal of the republican party since at least Regan and likely Nixon.
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I find it hard to believe someone can identify as a different gender when they’re 3…
