I’m not trying to fedpost or any form of 
-posting in any form, more just marveling at the entirely lackluster response of the American public to the maddeningly absurd state of American politics.
Of course Americans are the most propagandized people on Earth, but it’s been that way for generations, and at this point I feel like the sheer amount of shit that is allowed to just fly by with full knowledge of the public with little or no 
moments is preposterous. Not to mention the fact that as things continue to get worse, there are more and more people who are desperate and/or unwell, and in such a position as to incite some crazy shit.
Like… at this point, it’s just open knowledge that the government is a cabal of bloated parasitic pedophiles, and it has been so for quite some time now. Not just “they MIGHT be doing some creepy shit”, but rather they definitely, 100%, without any question have been, are, and will continue to do the most abhorrent type of shit anyone can imagine, for their own sick satisfaction and greed. Conversely, the number of people who’ve lost someone to the soul-sucking nightmare that is our healthcare system, or who’ve lost a child or loved one in any of our many shootings, or any number of other reasons to be righteously revolted by this manufactured reality we live in, is surely immense.
While some people are obviously acting out in all the most disgustingly wrong ways (i.e. said shootings), there’s quite a lot of people who know the correct people to blame for our collective misery, who also have nothing left to lose, because they’ve tragically lost it all already.
So… am I just wrong to expect that more type shit should be going down by now?
I don’t like the idea that the only way for things to change here is to see a bunch of my friends and family die first. I totally get keeping one’s head in the sand if the alternative is death and starvation.
If you want the left to grow in times like these you have to give people a path that doesn’t require mass death.
I don’t mean to be rude with my original comment, but honestly, and sadly, I disagree.
What do you think moved the masses into revolution in Cuba, Vietnam, China, or imperial Russia? All of them had terrible despotic leaderships or situations of colonization that caused inmense suffering.
It’s not pretty. But it is a pattern. At the very very most, you might get a socialist (not Bernie) elected through bourgeois democratic means under current US conditions, like was the case for Chavez, Morales, or Allende (with all of their huge flaws).
What can we do as revolutionaries then? Struggle to raise the levels of discipline within our parties, and raise the levels of consciousness of the masses to the largest extent, so that the bloodshed, when it arrives, is reduced to a minimum.
What might be a catalyst for all of this? Maybe Climate change, but this will impact the global south and cause mass death here way before the gringos really start feeling uncomfortable.
History repeats, but it doesn’t always have to. I have to believe that a solution without bloodshed can work, because tbh I’m not going to push for conditions to get worse. That’s not going to happen. The whole point of politics is to improve peoples lives, not hope they get worse to the point that they start burning things down!
There is only a handful of people who need to shed blood. I will not elaborate and break site rules. We absolutely can, and will, make change happen if we can get a nationwide strike that sticks and replace the people at the top. We know the US government caves when their precious flights get delayed, so imagine how far they’ll go if they can’t get anything done because all us working folk stop working for them?
I’m not going to let my family starve for a chance at history repeating itself here. No one will. Self-preservation trumps all ideology.
They will open fire on a general strike before they peacefully hand over power. The question then is how you respond to the violence enacted on you and the answer lies within the revolutionary party CL referred to. Additionally, he said prepare for things to get worse before they get better, not make things worse
Maybe I misinterpreted the last comment. I don’t believe in making things worse, more working with the conditions we have now vs. waiting for things to get worse. We are far off from a general strike when workers here are so effectively split among every possible line Capitalists can come up with. Age, race, gender, sexuality, where someone was born, which Capitalist party they support, and so much more. And I fear it will get worse for a lot of people as the social media they’re addicted to become worse echo chambers with fake AI people telling them stories that are curated to their particular interests.
What I want to see is a whole lot more concerted effort on educating/deprogramming people. Theory is not compatible with the average burger lander. There’s good resources out there that explain what’s going on in more accessible terms but I see a lot of people on the left focusing more on the “vanguard” before focusing on the workers. Sure, study theory personally but we need more Hasan Pikers and they need to be everywhere, especially at the local level. I’m focusing my time and energy on educating locally, creating & spreading propaganda, and building mutual aid networks around me. If SHTF I want people around where we can trust each other and help keep our needs met.
That’s what a party is for! If you’re educating people on your own, great, but to truly transform society we need a concerted collective effort that goes further than individual conversations. The black panthers got people reading, and their target audience was also not immediately receptive to the idea. We don’t only need a bunch of individuals individually educating their communities, we need those individuals to have the money and resources to reshape their communities in a planned vision. Your efforts are good and valiant, but imagine if you had an organization backing you up, giving you material and strategy that worked elsewhere. Thats the benefit of a party, bringing together the propagandists and activists to focus their energy
I am part of an org and am pushing us to do more outward-facing political education.
A general strike doesn’t necessarily mean a picket line, it can be just a bunch of people refusing to come in to work. Do you think they’ll hunt down millions of people in their homes for not clocking in?
I think they’ll enslave vast swathes of the population at drone point before peaceful democratic socialism is established
do you support the suffering of billions in the global south so that your family doesnt starve? this is the very real dillema the ruling class is putting everyone in the US in, you have to be willing for your family and friends to face the exact kind of suffering the proletariat suffers outside of the imperial core to be an actual communist. even if you manage to get some meager soc dem reforms, where is it actually coming from? this will explain to you any and all of the completely and utterly anti-communist and anti-international-proletarian actions you see from imperial core unions, especially those in amerikkka.
this does not mean life has to stay worse for the (white/rich) citizens of the imperial core. In fact, even though they in some way benefit from their position in that they dont have to face the same kind of harsh life as the working class in the periphery, they still suffer immensely from other of capitalism’s “side effects” (see car culture, consumerism, schooling, housing as a commodity, etc etc). But capitalism is like a cancer in the body, by far the best (and to date ONLY) effective medicine is the equivalent of chemotherapy. we must literally poison ourselves to get rid of this tumor called capitalism. revolution will be immensely horrible, but it’s the only way to get out of this mess and try* to save the rest of the proletariat not so lucky to be born in the imperial core, and probably even human life on the planet as a whole with how climate change is going. Is this an attractive proposition for people in the imperial core? for most, no, the side effects of the cancer are not dire enough to risk their relatively comfortable living yet, especially when chemotherapy (revolution+socialism) has yet to show itself to be 100% effective and has a high failure rate to this point. this is what is behind this reasoning that conditions must greatly worsen in the US for socialism to come. last thing to say about this whole analogy is incomplete without mentioning the internally oppressed populations in the US and other western countries (lgbtq+, racial minorities, etc.) that already face worse conditions and thus are much more ready for the chemotherapy, which is why i think communist orgs should always be focused on heavily recruiting from these populations.
if this means you cant be a communist, that’s fine. really all communists need is for you to not be an anticommunist. sympathizer is a term i like :)
*this is, assuming of course, that we would even manage to accomplish this before the global south emancipates themselves. still, i’d rather we do everything in our power to try to win instead of shoving the burden onto the shoulders of those who already shoulder an unimaginably unfair share of the burden
I apologize, my screen didn’t show your whole comment and I just saw the first few lines.
I get where you’re coming from. I think based on where you’re coming from, and if I see the same thing after more reading (Lenin is on my to read list) then maybe I am just a “sympathizer” or a Democratic Socialist or whatever left-lite term you want to use. I know in my personal life that I am the most radical by far, but that doesn’t mean much in the global sense.
You’re also right that I’m not comfortable with wanting my material conditions to get much worse for something that isn’t a guarantee. For all I know if conditions really get bad here we will just become a fascist hellhole and the guys with the $90k pickup trucks with flags hanging out the back will start shooting anyone that’s any shade of brown. People like me aren’t going to take up arms unless there’s literally no option left. My life IS comfortable despite being jobless and having to resort to weird side gigs to get by. Life could be a lot worse.
If Capitalists knew what was good for them they’d keep YouTube free and make the “treats” cheap and plentiful, but IDK if there’s enough of them that can be that forward-thinking. The circuses are getting enshittified, and we just hit the edge of losing bread…
dont worry about it, it happens. I will reply to both comments under this one.
to be clear, i dont even consider myself a communist! i am extremely sympathetic, and have done a decent amount of reading, enough to be able to understand most of what i read from actual marxists, but i am not educated enough on the nuances and am not nearly dedicated enough (I havent done any organizing since college years ago). on some level like you said i think it is because i am comfortable in my life. i feel obligated to take care of my ailing parents. i also struggle really badly with mental health, so i dont think it’s a good idea for me to try to become involved in organizing when i know it’s possible i would just disappear out of no where. etc etc. Maybe these are just excuses to disguise my ultimate class interest in imperialism continuing? regardless, this is why i have come to identify myself as a sympathizer instead of a communist, at least in communist circles. i think it helps clear the discussion up because i see way too many people arguing about the most basic marxist 101 stuff despite having a ham sic in their profile and what not and i just think it’s not helpful to the movement at all for people to claim to be communists because they view it as something moral to be despite not actually being truly dedicated to the cause.
also, no serious communist actually advocates for sitting around doing literally nothing.
this is a misunderstanding of the vanguard concept that separates the vanguard from the masses. I dont feel like going into it here besides that the vanguard must be comprised of workers, who make up the masses, so how could a true vanguard actually be separate from the masses? again no serious communist suggests doing nothing so there will be no “magical” following of leaders. finally, of course it wont look like anywhere else because 1) amerikkka is the heart of the imperial core and 2) a settler colonial state.
propaganda works because they have rational intrests in believing the propaganda. highly recomend masses rebels and elites, im sure it gets old seeing people on here reccomend it but it seriously fits my experiences in life trying to even convince my friends and family of my views and how they seem so eager to hoover up complete BS. TLDR is that they believe capitalist propaganda because they want to believe capitalist propaganda in order to receive economic and social benefits.
im not touching the mamdani part with anything less than a 30 foot pole with all the struggle sessions recently, thank you very much!
i am by far the most radical person i know in my personal life too, feel you there. if you want to call yourself a democratic socialist… ok. whatever. just be honest with yourself and others that down that way lie only ruin. the graves of hundreds of thousands of comrades lie down that path (read: entire history of the “left”, but if you want specifics of what true horrors the bourgousie will inflict upon you if sniff even a whiff of sucess i highly reccomend The Jakarta Method by Vincent Blevins. changed my entire political journey.*
genuinely, thank you for admitting this, it shows a good amount of self awareness to be able to actually gauge your own class interests in this way. ive seen so many online when pressed in the way i was pressing get really angry and start insisting they have it as bad as anyone and will eventually double down into the position that imperialism isnt real.
this is because capitalists are merely the high priests of capitalism and not its true architects in a way, they are trapped by their class intrest and more directly literally by capital itself. HIGHLY recommend ian wright’s essay Capitalism as a Real God for further reading.
Thank you for the thoughtful replies. I will have replies later probably tonight.
Reply is late, sorry about that. It’s been a good thread.
I have read this one a couple times. Where I have to have hope is in the business class here failing to act in a way that keeps the illusion going for us burgerlanders. They’re not working in tamdem and because the system requires them to be ruthless about squeezing profit from anywhere they can, they lay off people, replace people with AI and self-checkouts, offshore jobs, convert full-time jobs to gig jobs or part-time, etc. That’s where we have to come in.
I just can’t go with the idea that things have to get SO bad that all of these people have to be literally starving or gunned down by troops before they will demand better. I’m hopeful that even in my suburban, “comfortable” surroundings that I hear a lot more class consciousness around me. There has to be a point where people realize, despite all of the propaganda and despite that subconscious notion that they benefit from the global imperialism, that “hey, I’m getting screwed over too! Not as bad as in Africa, but still”. If life isn’t good for the average American what does that say about the people in other countries? The American Dream is a nightmare. Imperialism only goes so far when you can’t afford a house, a car needs a 15-year loan to purchase, everything costs too much, and wages aren’t going anywhere. I have to believe people will break sooner than the point where they can’t afford food, right?!?
Sympathizer recommended the Jakarta Method and I believe it would resonate with you. Here is a section from the end I still think about to this day
Additionally, here’s the article on “brainwashing” and why most first world workers appear to be brainwashed by capitalism. You basically already summed up the thesis without knowing it
“My life IS comfortable despite being jobless and having to resort to weird side gigs to get by. Life could be a lot worse”
https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels/
Organizing is weird here in the states because the people who can afford to take time out of their days to organize are mainly white, mainly middle class, and have fairly comfortable lives. People aren’t organizing out of “desperation” because for all intents and purposes that’s not what’s happening on the ground here. Of course our orgs being full of these people means that we have a hard time interacting with the people we are trying to help and who are truly destitute such as the folks on SNAP, homeless people, chronically unemployed, etc.
I am aware of my privilege and the privilege of those organizing with me. We still are doing ICE watch, are still organizing mutual aid and such, but I don’t consider us future leaders or any revolution.
I’m not your kind of Communist. I don’t want suffering anywhere, but we’re not going to get past suffering if we just sit around and wait for things to get bad.
It’s a core complaint I have with a type of “ultra” leftism I encounter on this site. I don’t believe in a “vanguard”. I believe in empowering everyday working class folks, not some nebulous core of “leaders” who people will magically follow when things get really bad. This whole vanguard concept comes off as wishful thinking. Thinking that the American Revolution is going to look anything like what happened in China or Russia or Cuba is not realistic. Thinking that American leftists have to follow the same steps as in other places is also not dialectical.
If we want to see good changes happen we have to work with the people we have now. That means more mutual aid, more on-the-ground ICE watch and court watch, cop watch, etc. More spreading propaganda. More educating and having endless patience for the American worker who has been fed Capitalist propaganda and beaten down with Capitalist Realism their whole lives. It means figuring out how to make our ideologies work under a tapestry of individualism, because there is a cultural selfishness that I don’t believe people in most other countries have. And if that means we have to take baby steps into Democratic Socialism and elect a bunch more Mamdanis, hold a lot more Food Not Bombs, and do a lot more patient educating then so be it.
You don’t understand what a vanguard party is at all
The vanguard should be empowering everyday working class folk. It’s not supposed to be comprised of only revolutionary wartime leaders. They are meant to maintain a strong working knowledge of Marxist theory in order to educate and guide the working class to develop their revolutionary consciousness and class awareness. The working class, in turn, empower the vanguard through their “spontaneous actions” (protesting, striking, etc.) in a symbiotic relationship of sorts.
Responding to the “vanguard” bits people are commenting on:
I have had some bad IRL experiences with people who considered themselves “vanguard” and that has soured my opinion of the concept. On one occasion a “revolutionary vanguard” group disrupted my org’s reading group because apparently we weren’t left enough for their liking. That’s what the reading is for! They were very disruptive and basically forced the room into a shouting match and a lot of BS for almost an hour before leaving.
Another time a small Marxist org wanted to run some political education night schools. Our chapter decided to try working with them on a joint program since we wanted to hear their perspective and keep trying to unite with other left groups locally. That turned into a disaster! Long story short, the main instigator at this other org tried to break apart couples, saying so-and-so “wasn’t supportive”, caused a trans comrade a lot of mental anguish, and was a complete jackass to everyone that wasn’t 100% on board with their very narrow view of Marxism. And they pushed the same “vanguard” points and of course thought they were going to be that vanguard.
To me if there is going to be a “vanguard” it has to come from the people organizing on the ground, not from study groups. Unfortunately theory and practice are showing me that while in theory this is how the vanguard should form, in practice it just ends up being the loudest people in the room or the people who already have hangups or personality issues gaining an ego and defending it with this theory. People twist things to fit their personal needs and biases all the time. I mean look at all those Christians who love to tell everyone how to live but clearly haven’t read what Jesus was all about!
Forgive me for leaning more towards my Anarchist friends’ views on this. I believe if leadership forms it should form organically and should be people that are heads down doing the work, not the people who have read the most theory. Theory is great and important to understand, but I don’t value it as highly as having on-the-ground experience. I see others posting that the vanguard needs to be organizers. Hopefully ya’ll have had better experiences where you live.
I’m sorry you had that experience comrade. That elitist mentality has no place in a true vanguard. Like another poster who responded to you with “you don’t understand what the vanguard is.” How is that helpful? We should be helping each other with our understanding of theory, not lording our understanding over others.
The vanguard will be made up of teachers and organizers. They will be shoulder to shoulder with you in the trenches, ensuring the revolution is comprised of an educated proletariat rather than a chaotic angry mob.
Imperial Russia was in a relatively novel transition towards parliamentary democracy since the late 19th century and especially since 1905, with the situation still unstable. China in the 30s and Cuba in the 50s were fairly anocratic, with warlords/mob bosses taking over for very short spans before being deposed by the next one. In all 4 cases, the State and especially its legitimacy was weakened, and there were several stages that revolutionary activity flared up in- openings that were taken.
This is not to rule out mass death as a possibility, but I suspect a return of Great Depression conditions (fuel shortages and food shortages, and also telecommunications going down) would be sufficient to get Americans into an insurgent mood. The treat printer definitely has to break down, and while that will happen before climate change really starts hitting America hard, many other things could weaken the state’s response capability.