We do that all the time. A lot of kink is about recreating situations that would otherwise be unsafe or abusive but within a safe consensual “pretend” context.
Tying someone up and whipping them? A fucked up immoral thing to do.
Tying someone up and whipping them but it’s sexy and everyone involved consents? Fucking awesome.
The point is that it’s contextual. Normally it would be flagrantly immoral to tie up another human being against their will and force them to eat from a dog bowl.
But if two people engage in that activity, with informed consent, have a safe word, etc. The normal rules of social niceties are suspended.
It’s playing pretend. It’s not real.
While there are obvious concerns about the set of a porn film, that make it distinct from a regular film set, just as with regular film, such environments need to be regulated for safety and related concerns.
Anyone who’s had sex can tell you that porn isn’t Exactly realistic. It’s actors, filming a scene that woman being strangled is, on a properly regulated film set, is not actually being strangled. Just as two dudes shooting guns in an action movie aren’t actually killing people.
By passing all of these laws, they’re pushing pornography production into a legal grey area where film set safety regulations increasingly don’t apply, which actively puts people at risk.
Edit: I also want to make sure that I don’t come off as somehow whitewashing the porn industry. Others in this thread have rightfully pointed out that porn stars are often abused on set.
Many Marxist Feminists, especially in the global south, have advocated for the immediate abolition of sex work. This makes sense in a context where the sex work industry is serving a largely white, bourgeois, clientele. A manifestation of larger Imperialist value extraction.
In the global north, however, I think sex workers are largely under-theorized as a peripheral part of the proletariat (or often lumpen-proletariat) that ought to be organized by Socialists.
While we ought to strive to live in a world where no one must sell their body to survive, sexually or otherwise, I think the short term response to these contradictions is to advocate for, and organize sex workers, and that includes pushing back against these laws, which further ostracize an already uniquely exploited part of the working class
Just going to reply to you because I don’t want to retype this a hundred times in the thread. I get exactly what you’re saying and I find it very hard to disagree with any of it. But if this kind of fantasy play acting ever crossed into someone pretending to be underage I don’t think I’d say it’s okay and maybe I’m badly misreading the room but I’m not sure anyone else here would either. So there has to be some line somewhere and I can’t find it
into someone pretending to be underage I don’t think I’d say it’s okay and maybe I’m badly misreading the room but I’m not sure anyone else here would either
Again, it’s pretending. it’s not real. It might personally give you the ick, and that’s fine. That’s the point of consent, none one should be made to engage in a sexual act that they don’t want to. But when you start drawing arbitrary lines about what consenting adults can and can’t do, based on your own personal icks, that’s an issue.
For example, Age play is something that a lot of trans women engage in, and that fact is often weaponized against them by people who want to demonize trans people as inherently dangerous to children.
I am transfem and while ageplay isn’t my thing, my first exposure to the very concept of transness, as a young kid, was an episode of a reality show. In this episode the brilliant minds over at TLC took this otherwise very sweet seeming trans woman, who was into ageplay kink because it allowed her to reclaim a childhood she never got to have, and demonized her for it.
The other half of the episode was, if I recall correctly, about a person who drank bleach. The show went to great lengths to demonize this trans woman for her otherwise harmless quirk, and treated her behavior as equivalently dangerous to that of the bleach drinker. That kind of framing did a lot of damage to my self conception. Told me that my desire for transition was not only inherently a perversion, but actively dangerous.
So, while you might not like it, demonizing behavior done between consenting adults just ain’t it. Personally, I trust the person engaging in consensual play between grown adults more than I trust someone who conflates fiction and reality, because they think it’s yucky. The content of that play is irrelevant.
Personally, I don’t necessarily care. I’ve see real children be incinerated by US made bombs in Palestine enough times that I struggle to care about some fictional drawings. Plus, I’ve never seen a firm causal link made between 4000 year old loli hentai, and actual abuse of children. It just doesn’t sound like any of my business. Not when the West is undeniably killing real children as we speak.
Weebs and GamersTM famously have less of a grasp on sex than your average porn watcher anyway. But I could always be wrong about all this, I suppose.
The point I’m making though, is that scurrying around, looking for some moral, ethical, line for what kinds of consensual acts between adults are “good” vs “bad” is a fruitless exercise. Was consent enthusiastically given? Is everyone involved adequately informed, and taking safety precautions? Then who cares? Not my monkeys, not my circus. People should be empowered by the systems around them to make their own decisions about their gender and sexuality, not arbitrarily restricted.
You expressed concern earlier about “badly misreading the room”. Just for some perspective, I have concerns about expressing my, I think very tepid, opinions about this because I know how trans women’s sexuality is twisted and warped to attack us, and I know that Hexbear is a place that can be a little trigger happy with discourse and dunking. I wouldn’t be surprised if I caught a ban for my opinions in this thread, because transmisogyny runs deep, and it doesn’t take a lot for a trans woman’s word to be twisted against her. The stakes for us are different here.
people who experience trauma sometimes want to process it in a safe controlled environment. this is different from material produced for people who would inflict abuse on others.
Ageplay is a relatively common kink, certainly in many trans kink spaces I’ve been in. If adults are risk-aware and engaging in consensual kink, there’s nothing wrong with it at all.
In general yes? There are lots of “when real, this is extremely bad and not fun at all” things that when remade into safely ritualized and/or sufficiently fantastical forms become exciting and safe ways of coping with real anxieties and fears, whether this is through some sort of ritualized roleplay or more explicit fiction and art.
i mean, yes? is it really flagrantly immoral if (actually) consenting adults agree to participate in an activity together? like sure if someone on the street stabbed me out of nowhere I’d be pretty put out but i would consider that categorically different than asking my partner to carve her name into my thigh with a razor blade bc it gets me going even though their actions (cutting my skin) and the outcome (me being wounded) are functionally identical
not all violence is created equal. we can understand this outside the purview of kink (violence against the workers bad, violence against the ownership class good) so I don’t really see why we should struggle with it here
I saw a flagrantly immoral video the other day, where a man was visiting his parole officer who was a woman, when he got up to use the toilet she found a ring he had, that she thought he had stolen, she tried the ring on and it turns out it was magic, because her whole personality changed and she was very horny. The scoundrel knowing her consent was impaired by the magic ring, still agreed to tie her up (while fondling her!) and at the last minute he took the magic ring off her leaving her stranded and not enjoying the situation as she previously had been.
It was all fake but those creators should be in jail.
missionary with the lights off for the purposes of procreation ONLY
Bro if I could get my wife to leave the lights on, I would be a happy man.
I mean we don’t excuse kink when it comes to other flagrantly immoral acts as long as they’re fake, right?
We do that all the time. A lot of kink is about recreating situations that would otherwise be unsafe or abusive but within a safe consensual “pretend” context.
Tying someone up and whipping them? A fucked up immoral thing to do.
Tying someone up and whipping them but it’s sexy and everyone involved consents? Fucking awesome.
The point is that it’s contextual. Normally it would be flagrantly immoral to tie up another human being against their will and force them to eat from a dog bowl.
But if two people engage in that activity, with informed consent, have a safe word, etc. The normal rules of social niceties are suspended.
It’s playing pretend. It’s not real.
While there are obvious concerns about the set of a porn film, that make it distinct from a regular film set, just as with regular film, such environments need to be regulated for safety and related concerns.
Anyone who’s had sex can tell you that porn isn’t Exactly realistic. It’s actors, filming a scene that woman being strangled is, on a properly regulated film set, is not actually being strangled. Just as two dudes shooting guns in an action movie aren’t actually killing people.
By passing all of these laws, they’re pushing pornography production into a legal grey area where film set safety regulations increasingly don’t apply, which actively puts people at risk.
Edit: I also want to make sure that I don’t come off as somehow whitewashing the porn industry. Others in this thread have rightfully pointed out that porn stars are often abused on set.
Many Marxist Feminists, especially in the global south, have advocated for the immediate abolition of sex work. This makes sense in a context where the sex work industry is serving a largely white, bourgeois, clientele. A manifestation of larger Imperialist value extraction.
In the global north, however, I think sex workers are largely under-theorized as a peripheral part of the proletariat (or often lumpen-proletariat) that ought to be organized by Socialists.
While we ought to strive to live in a world where no one must sell their body to survive, sexually or otherwise, I think the short term response to these contradictions is to advocate for, and organize sex workers, and that includes pushing back against these laws, which further ostracize an already uniquely exploited part of the working class
Just going to reply to you because I don’t want to retype this a hundred times in the thread. I get exactly what you’re saying and I find it very hard to disagree with any of it. But if this kind of fantasy play acting ever crossed into someone pretending to be underage I don’t think I’d say it’s okay and maybe I’m badly misreading the room but I’m not sure anyone else here would either. So there has to be some line somewhere and I can’t find it
Again, it’s pretending. it’s not real. It might personally give you the ick, and that’s fine. That’s the point of consent, none one should be made to engage in a sexual act that they don’t want to. But when you start drawing arbitrary lines about what consenting adults can and can’t do, based on your own personal icks, that’s an issue.
For example, Age play is something that a lot of trans women engage in, and that fact is often weaponized against them by people who want to demonize trans people as inherently dangerous to children.
I am transfem and while ageplay isn’t my thing, my first exposure to the very concept of transness, as a young kid, was an episode of a reality show. In this episode the brilliant minds over at TLC took this otherwise very sweet seeming trans woman, who was into ageplay kink because it allowed her to reclaim a childhood she never got to have, and demonized her for it.
The other half of the episode was, if I recall correctly, about a person who drank bleach. The show went to great lengths to demonize this trans woman for her otherwise harmless quirk, and treated her behavior as equivalently dangerous to that of the bleach drinker. That kind of framing did a lot of damage to my self conception. Told me that my desire for transition was not only inherently a perversion, but actively dangerous.
So, while you might not like it, demonizing behavior done between consenting adults just ain’t it. Personally, I trust the person engaging in consensual play between grown adults more than I trust someone who conflates fiction and reality, because they think it’s yucky. The content of that play is irrelevant.
Then I guess I don’t understand why we hate the really a 4000 year old dragon stuff
Personally, I don’t necessarily care. I’ve see real children be incinerated by US made bombs in Palestine enough times that I struggle to care about some fictional drawings. Plus, I’ve never seen a firm causal link made between 4000 year old loli hentai, and actual abuse of children. It just doesn’t sound like any of my business. Not when the West is undeniably killing real children as we speak.
Weebs and GamersTM famously have less of a grasp on sex than your average porn watcher anyway. But I could always be wrong about all this, I suppose.
The point I’m making though, is that scurrying around, looking for some moral, ethical, line for what kinds of consensual acts between adults are “good” vs “bad” is a fruitless exercise. Was consent enthusiastically given? Is everyone involved adequately informed, and taking safety precautions? Then who cares? Not my monkeys, not my circus. People should be empowered by the systems around them to make their own decisions about their gender and sexuality, not arbitrarily restricted.
You expressed concern earlier about “badly misreading the room”. Just for some perspective, I have concerns about expressing my, I think very tepid, opinions about this because I know how trans women’s sexuality is twisted and warped to attack us, and I know that Hexbear is a place that can be a little trigger happy with discourse and dunking. I wouldn’t be surprised if I caught a ban for my opinions in this thread, because transmisogyny runs deep, and it doesn’t take a lot for a trans woman’s word to be twisted against her. The stakes for us are different here.
“age play” where an adult plays a child = ok sometimes
drawing of CP for pedos to crank it to = not ok
I really don’t see what the difference is. I’d make both illegal if it were up to me but how are you drawing a line here?
people who experience trauma sometimes want to process it in a safe controlled environment. this is different from material produced for people who would inflict abuse on others.
Ageplay is a relatively common kink, certainly in many trans kink spaces I’ve been in. If adults are risk-aware and engaging in consensual kink, there’s nothing wrong with it at all.
Getting tried at the Hague for crimes against peace because I annexed Belgium in Victoria 3
playing paradox games gets you in the 9th circle of gamer gulag
Belgium deserved it.
In general yes? There are lots of “when real, this is extremely bad and not fun at all” things that when remade into safely ritualized and/or sufficiently fantastical forms become exciting and safe ways of coping with real anxieties and fears, whether this is through some sort of ritualized roleplay or more explicit fiction and art.
i mean, yes? is it really flagrantly immoral if (actually) consenting adults agree to participate in an activity together? like sure if someone on the street stabbed me out of nowhere I’d be pretty put out but i would consider that categorically different than asking my partner to carve her name into my thigh with a razor blade bc it gets me going even though their actions (cutting my skin) and the outcome (me being wounded) are functionally identical
not all violence is created equal. we can understand this outside the purview of kink (violence against the workers bad, violence against the ownership class good) so I don’t really see why we should struggle with it here
In many people’s moral systems, pretending to do things isn’t immoral.
I saw a flagrantly immoral video the other day, where a man was visiting his parole officer who was a woman, when he got up to use the toilet she found a ring he had, that she thought he had stolen, she tried the ring on and it turns out it was magic, because her whole personality changed and she was very horny. The scoundrel knowing her consent was impaired by the magic ring, still agreed to tie her up (while fondling her!) and at the last minute he took the magic ring off her leaving her stranded and not enjoying the situation as she previously had been.
It was all fake but those creators should be in jail.