Some of the most effective and fervent leftist organizers I’ve ever met were former military members. Most of these guys were kids from underprivileged and undereducated communities when they joined the military and has never been introduced to concepts like class consciousness untill after the military used and abused them.
Pretty much every effective militant revolution in history were founded or led by a group of former military members. If we cannot accept that people can and will change their minds when exposed to the truth, then what is the point of leftist organizing in the first place?
Leftist claiming to be revolutionaries who then reject the idea that people can change is oxymoronic and counterrevolutionary. Leftists are converted not created, and we cannot afford to reject the willing, able, and capable. Do they have a debt to society? Yes, but they often know this better than anyone, and will work harder than most to pay it off.
I’m not American and I don’t live in America. The leftist revolution where I live will involve going to war with America and Americans. I’m not against all military members, I am against American military members. I hate America and the American military for what they did to Iraq. I will never have solidarity with the people thatremovedd and pillaged the Iraqi side of my family. I hate all the people who were a part of it and I hope they all burn in hell forever. I don’t care if they “change”, I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.
I live in America and I hope when my country wages war against yours, “we” lose. I really respect and appreciate your perspective of being entirely against the American military because I am too. I remember how the troops and their supporters treated me and my family because we looked like the people they’d been told were the enemy, and I don’t even want to stop hating them for that. Nor can I want to stop hating them for what they did to Iraq and Afghanistan. The dead don’t get another shot at life. The dead don’t get to be happy. The traumatized will carry their wounds the rest of their lives. So why should their killers?
It is frankly refreshing and validating to see someone else harboring that fiery stance because it’s so painfully rare here and I feel alone with it.
When I see local comrades – usually white – make carveouts for American soldiers, I feel like I trust them less and it’s a struggle because I want to not have that trust take a hit. But, ask them if they’d apply that standard to Nazi soldiers, and they will not or cannot really engage.
I don’t know how they can really care about the victims of fascism and excuse fascism’s footsoldiers.
I’m not American and I don’t live in America. The leftist revolution where I live will involve going to war with America and Americans. I’m not against all military members, I am against American military members.
Right, but blind nationalist based hate for someone who also disagrees and fights against empiricists after a realization of class consciousness makes no sense. Class solidarity transcends nationalist sentiment.
I don’t care if they “change”, I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.
Eh, I guess we just ideologically disagree with each other. My family had to immigrate after America ravaged and occupied their land, and I don’t equate all American citizens with the crimes of the nation. But I guess everyone deals with their pain differently.
The christcuck you are defending is so class conscious and anti-imperialist that he couldn’t even bring himself to apologize for genocide minimization anonymously on hexbear.net when someone whose family were attacked by his genocidal buddies expressed their rightful anger. Americans should start proving third worldists wrong whenever they say stuff like “I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.” instead of having a whinge about why its akshually not ok/correct/“class conscious” to say things like that etc.
I remember someone mentioning once that most US military are from middle class/petit bourgeois backgrounds and this has been the case for a while.
Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.
Furthermore its not really about people not being able to change and become less shit in general per se, its just that those guys are as bad on the same level as IDF who genocide Palestinians and/or nazis who genocided the slavs. Like especially for the platner piece of shit. You can’t just proudly wear being a fascist accessory to genocide on your chest, literally in this case.
Edit: I tried clicking around to other links on Archive.org and it looks like they had the front page snapshot, but none of the links work. It’s too bad this site is defunct and I’m only hearing about it now because I think I would like to read more from them.
Maoist Standard English is great because it starts off as “haha, what funny hyperbole” and ends with “no this is 100% accurate and not the slightest bit hyperbolic but it’s also still funny”.
The natural development of a leftist: Spelling America as AmeriKKKa first ironically, then so earnestly that you have to amend the spelling in your normal writings so you don’t draw the wrong questions from the wrong people.
remember someone mentioning once that most US military are from middle class/petit bourgeois backgrounds and this has been the case for a while.
That’s a marketing metric the military likes to brag about… But it’s a bit misleading. They say 60% come from a middle class and 20% from below middle class… However, they consider any household with an income from 38k -86k is middle class, which is a bit of a spread.
Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.
I mean that’s just kinda ahistorical? Most of the higher up military in the Soviet Republic also served the Tsar. Was Georgy Zhukov not communist enough for us? What about Hugo Chavez?
Like especially for the platner piece of shit. You can’t just proudly wear being a fascist accessory to genocide on your chest, literally in this case.
My rebuttal and defense was against the general rejection of all military members, not any specific one. Obviously there needs to be context and nuance when evaluating individual character and whether or not someone has turned a new leaf.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters (who were arguably less genocidal than the usa).
I don’t have much experience with small leftist orgs in the imperial core but I’d think imagine its both good security and basic solidarity with the people america genocides to not have fascist soldiers who have been probably indoctrinated by deed and brainwashing anywhere near positions of leadership in a small leftist org at the stage of struggle that does not require armed combat.
general rejection of all military members
Its an expression of rightful disdain at one of the world’s worst fascist militaries who have never stopped committing genocide from the founding of their settler colony till now. Many people outside of america and its allies hate the us military to hell because the us military is often pointing guns at them, just like how everyone hates cops within the imperial core. They are the west’s occupation force for the third world. For many, the reality is that they are a genocidal force to be fought off.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters (who were arguably less genocidal than the usa)
I really don’t know about the Tsar being less genocidal, like the dude got pulled up a river by slaves trudging through hip deep mud with ropes attached to their fucking foreheads. If he had the resources America had the world would be fundamentally worse than it is now purely because the landowner class is more depraved and reactionary than the bourgeoisie
If anything, the Tsar is about as genocidal as the confederacy, which I think most can agree is far worse than the USA at the time.
Yeah I was referring more to the scale and length of the genocidal regimes plus the general depravity of the us military, sorry didn’t mean to minimize how evil the Tsar was, the Bolsheviks did a lot of good by destroying the tsarist empire.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
(who were arguably less genocidal than the usa)
I mean not to demean the extent of American war crimes… However, the Russian imperial empire had just committed the Circassian genocide a couple decades before the revolution.
good security and basic solidarity with the people america genocides to not have fascist soldiers who have been probably indoctrinated by deed and brainwashing anywhere near positions of leadership in a small leftist org at the stage of struggle that does not require armed combat.
How do you think opsec is learned in the first place? I’m not saying to befriend an unapologetic rabid SS soldier. I’m saying there are plenty of people who are disenfranchised by the military who go on to train and lead revolutionary forces.
Its an expression of rightful disdain at one of the world’s worst fascist militaries who have never stopped committing genocide from the founding of their settler colony till now.
You can still disdain the military without disdaining former soldiers who learn class consciousness and now also disdain the military.
Many people outside of america and its allies hate the us military to hell because the us military is often pointing guns at them
Yes…I know. My mother had to flee her country because the US installed a puppet dictatorship and she participated in a student uprising in the 80s. My grandfather had to hide in a hole for 2 years to evade US forces who were forcing inscription. We’ve lost communication to the majority of my family because the US continues to occupy half of my homeland.
If there is a revolution in the imperial core, you can guarantee that former US military will be involved. I’d rather there be a successful revolution than hold a grudge based on the choices people were forced into or chose out of ignorance when they were still teenagers.
My plan if I ever got drafted was just to frag my CO. Any private can do that. Not having an opportunity is about lack of conviction, will, and bravery.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
I can literally cite two (recently) living examples of this: Mike Prysner and Aaron Bushnell.
One gave up a military career entirely after being deployed to Iraq once and dedicates his life to anti-war/ anti-imperialist activism to the point that he literally gatecrashes conventions that host his former commander-in-chief Bush Jr. to call him a mass murdering war criminal right in his face.
The other, was an active US soldier who became disillusioned with the Imperialist war machine after seeing the US help Israel carry out a livestreamed genocide for over a year, so much so that he wrote a manifesto disavowing his military associates and condemning the entire imperialist system and everyone that supports it, and shortly after decided to (regretfully) self-immolate in front of the Israeli embassy.
That in my opinion, should be the standard that all potential revolutionaries in the US military should follow. And DEFINITELY NOT someone like Graham Platner who hasn’t done a smidgen of what the former soldiers I just mentioned have done.
I can literally cite two (recently) living examples of this: Mike Prysner and Aaron Bushnell
I would say these are examples of soldiers we are giving an opportunity to by appreciating their work and sacrifice. We are not dismissing their contributions by rote just because of their former affiliations.
And DEFINITELY NOT someone like Graham Platner who hasn’t done a smidgen of what the former soldiers I just mentioned have done.
Again, nothing I’ve written has been in the defense of Graham Planter. I’m just rebutting the claim that all former US soldiers should be held in absolute disdain.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
“Opportunity” is not the same thing as “being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Zhukov and Chavez had to earn a lot of trust with their lives on the line in combat to get to where they were, especially Zhukov.
I mean not to demean the extent of American war crimes… However
A few decades before that the americans had already ethnically cleansed north america. The russian empire was rightfully destroyed by the Bolsheviks while america still persists. Point being that american soldiers as part of a settler colonial ethnosupremacist anti communist military force are heavily indoctrinated to have deeply held reactionary beliefs. You dont have people like that anywhere near leadership of a communist org. Especially small ones that aren’t focused on combat at the moment. Why do you have to have former fascist shock troopers leading a workers organization that is meant to fight for the very working class who the leader has oppressed and marginalized? Why should workers have to rely on their oppressors as the rightful figureheads of their liberation?
I’m saying there are plenty of people who are disenfranchised by the military who go on to train and lead revolutionary forces
How about learning from the people who the us military lost against and/or who have experience fighting them. Veterans can act as trainers but they shouldn’t be let near leadership positions for the same reason you don’t want “former neo nazis” in positions of leadership either.
You can still disdain the military without disdaining former soldiers who learn class consciousness and now also disdain the military.
Yeah but it’s fine not to especially for those who are oppressed by the us military. And for good reason. Look at how the former navyman itt reacted earlier to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the genocidal us military. Not saying he can’t change for the better, he should, it’s just that he’s one of the most politically advanced amongst them.
If there is a revolution in the imperial core, you can guarantee that former US military will be involved.
Yes as the counterrevolutionary fascist paramilitary sent to kill the revolutionaries.
I’d rather there be a successful revolution
Surely a successful revolution would be possible without having “former nazis” in charge.
Opportunity" is not the same thing as “being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Zhukov and Chavez had to earn a lot of trust with their lives on the line in combat to get to where they were, especially Zhukov.
And the first step to do that is by accepting they could be of service to the cause despite their prior affiliation.
Also "“being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Is your conditional, not mine.
How about learning from the people who the us military lost against and/or who have experience fighting them. Veterans can act as trainers but they shouldn’t be let near leadership positions for the same reason you don’t want “former neo nazis” in positions of leadership either.
Well, most of the time revolutions happen locally and the people who beat the US military are located across the globe?
Also trainers are leaders? I don’t know why you are nit picking at the use of leadership, that’s your claim and has nothing to do with my original argument.
Yes as the counterrevolutionary fascist paramilitary sent to kill the revolutionaries
Lol, I’m not saying there won’t be ex military counter revolutionary forces. But what leads you to believe there won’t be ex military revolutionary forces?
Surely a successful revolution would be possible without having “former nazis” in charge.
Can you give me any examples of successful revolutions that are made up of revolutionary fighters completely devoid of any combat experience? You can’t just pick up a rifle with your buds and stand against a trained fire team.
Well, most of the time revolutions happen locally and the people who beat the US military are located across the globe
I won’t elaborate more on this, just know that there are ways to get around a distance barrier without attracting the attention of 3 letter agencies.
You can’t just pick up a rifle with your buds and stand against a trained fire team.
As if the masses are helpless fucks who can’t learn how to fight a guerilla war without having some “former nazi” in charge of the entire operation.
Also "“being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Is your conditional, not mine.
Earliest comment: “Pretty much every effective militant revolution in history were founded or led by a group of former military members”
I assumed that the “most fervent and militant leftist organizers” referred to in the first comment had major leadership positions within their organizations when I made the comment: “Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.”
This could have been a wrong assumption, the copes continued regardless as if it was not.
My point isn’t that “there will definitely be no ex fascist foot soldiers within a revolutionary movement”, its that its fucking ridiculous to have them in positions of leadership over small nonviolent leftist organizations when the struggle hasn’t turned violent. Bringing up Zhukov and Chavez is irrelevant because the stage of struggle during their time was already violent. Even when the struggle has turned violent these fucks need to prove their worth before being let anywhere near leadership over the organization.
Its just bizarre to start brown nosing “former fascist” soldiers in response to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the us military for being a ruthless genocidal white supremacist force that has destroyed many lives and continues to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hating them and responding to the hate with “but muh not all troops” is beyond unnecessary and serves to distract from the fact that they have helped commit genocide and should be regarded as such, ideally held accountable just like the wehrmacht/waffen SS/IOF.
Ahh yes, because we can’t comment about a specific comment in a thread without vicariously making a comment about the original post? Do you think people lack the required nuance or the reading comprehension that they would make the assumption I’m making a statement supporting white supremacy?
I’m not white, my family isn’t even from a western nation. I swear, this is the one of the worst instances when it comes to people whitesplaining
to poc what white supremacy is.
You also don’t have to go out of your way to actively lash out at them regarding their anger towards those that harmed them and/or their loved ones, just because you were a guilty participant. If it’s bad for your mental, block and move on.
It was the other way around, they lashed out at me, and well beyond you did bad and should feel bad, would have been right about that. I get to lash out at people who tell me to kill myself when I very nearly did, and I don’t make any apologies.
Unless there is something I’m not seeing they lashed out at soldiers, specifically soldiers that served the U.S., without any consideration of if anyone here was one and you took it personally.
Do you take the same stance when people proclaim their utter distain and hatred for Americans or have you just not seen that yet?
You aren’t being half as hard on me as I am on myself
I see the condescension, hostility and the rage-filled pity begging has not left you since you realized that joining the world leader in genocide is wrong.
The whole vet/military shtick of telling everyone you feel so bad about yourself is embarrassing. Grow the fuck up you clearly haven’t.
Yeah I was a third generation naval officer and at the time I thought I was signing up for any other normal job. I realized what a monster I was when Obama blew up his third hospital for the month and I resigned immediately
Noted, real talk though you should never ever tell dangerous unamerican countries and organizations anything you learned about the navy during your time of service, especially pieces of information that might be confidential. Even if it is out of date, any information is good information for those undemocratic evil foreign actors. So you shouldn’t do it because that would be treason and treason is bad!
Although this is still treason and bad, if you sell such information although this will anger your countrymen they will secretly be very proud! A true american capitalist, nothing is for free in life. This is why you should never ever give away this information for free, the demon CCP, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, the list goes on, the united states has many enemy someones on the hunt for intelligence. Always be vigilant!
I hate all US active and former military goons. Their sad and depressing fates are better then they deserve. Burn in hell.
Some of the most effective and fervent leftist organizers I’ve ever met were former military members. Most of these guys were kids from underprivileged and undereducated communities when they joined the military and has never been introduced to concepts like class consciousness untill after the military used and abused them.
Pretty much every effective militant revolution in history were founded or led by a group of former military members. If we cannot accept that people can and will change their minds when exposed to the truth, then what is the point of leftist organizing in the first place?
Leftist claiming to be revolutionaries who then reject the idea that people can change is oxymoronic and counterrevolutionary. Leftists are converted not created, and we cannot afford to reject the willing, able, and capable. Do they have a debt to society? Yes, but they often know this better than anyone, and will work harder than most to pay it off.
I’m not American and I don’t live in America. The leftist revolution where I live will involve going to war with America and Americans. I’m not against all military members, I am against American military members. I hate America and the American military for what they did to Iraq. I will never have solidarity with the people thatremovedd and pillaged the Iraqi side of my family. I hate all the people who were a part of it and I hope they all burn in hell forever. I don’t care if they “change”, I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.
I live in America and I hope when my country wages war against yours, “we” lose. I really respect and appreciate your perspective of being entirely against the American military because I am too. I remember how the troops and their supporters treated me and my family because we looked like the people they’d been told were the enemy, and I don’t even want to stop hating them for that. Nor can I want to stop hating them for what they did to Iraq and Afghanistan. The dead don’t get another shot at life. The dead don’t get to be happy. The traumatized will carry their wounds the rest of their lives. So why should their killers?
It is frankly refreshing and validating to see someone else harboring that fiery stance because it’s so painfully rare here and I feel alone with it.
When I see local comrades – usually white – make carveouts for American soldiers, I feel like I trust them less and it’s a struggle because I want to not have that trust take a hit. But, ask them if they’d apply that standard to Nazi soldiers, and they will not or cannot really engage.
I don’t know how they can really care about the victims of fascism and excuse fascism’s footsoldiers.
Right, but blind nationalist based hate for someone who also disagrees and fights against empiricists after a realization of class consciousness makes no sense. Class solidarity transcends nationalist sentiment.
Eh, I guess we just ideologically disagree with each other. My family had to immigrate after America ravaged and occupied their land, and I don’t equate all American citizens with the crimes of the nation. But I guess everyone deals with their pain differently.
The christcuck you are defending is so class conscious and anti-imperialist that he couldn’t even bring himself to apologize for genocide minimization anonymously on hexbear.net when someone whose family were attacked by his genocidal buddies expressed their rightful anger. Americans should start proving third worldists wrong whenever they say stuff like “I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.” instead of having a whinge about why its akshually not ok/correct/“class conscious” to say things like that etc.
Did you mean imperialists?
Haha, yeah. Combo of Auto correct and English being my second language.
Cool, no problem, thanks for confirming.
I remember someone mentioning once that most US military are from middle class/petit bourgeois backgrounds and this has been the case for a while.
Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.
Furthermore its not really about people not being able to change and become less shit in general per se, its just that those guys are as bad on the same level as IDF who genocide Palestinians and/or nazis who genocided the slavs. Like especially for the platner piece of shit. You can’t just proudly wear being a fascist accessory to genocide on your chest, literally in this case.
I specifically remember a Maoist standard English article called “the myth of the soldiertariet” that investigated the data, but I can’t find it now
Was it this? https://archive.ph/2x19K
The original website seems to be done for.
That’s the one holy shit
Rad!
thank you for finding that
Sure thing! 🕵️♀️
let me know if you find it, that sounds rad
Here you go! https://archive.ph/2x19K
I kind of love this, thanks for sharing.
Edit: I tried clicking around to other links on Archive.org and it looks like they had the front page snapshot, but none of the links work. It’s too bad this site is defunct and I’m only hearing about it now because I think I would like to read more from them.
Excellent! Thank you comrade!
Check @nondiagetic’s reply! They found it
It’s seared into my brain because it was so funny, but I’m only getting settlers right now. I’ll keep searching
Maoist Standard English is great because it starts off as “haha, what funny hyperbole” and ends with “no this is 100% accurate and not the slightest bit hyperbolic but it’s also still funny”.
The natural development of a leftist: Spelling America as AmeriKKKa first ironically, then so earnestly that you have to amend the spelling in your normal writings so you don’t draw the wrong questions from the wrong people.
That’s a marketing metric the military likes to brag about… But it’s a bit misleading. They say 60% come from a middle class and 20% from below middle class… However, they consider any household with an income from 38k -86k is middle class, which is a bit of a spread.
I mean that’s just kinda ahistorical? Most of the higher up military in the Soviet Republic also served the Tsar. Was Georgy Zhukov not communist enough for us? What about Hugo Chavez?
My rebuttal and defense was against the general rejection of all military members, not any specific one. Obviously there needs to be context and nuance when evaluating individual character and whether or not someone has turned a new leaf.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters (who were arguably less genocidal than the usa).
I don’t have much experience with small leftist orgs in the imperial core but I’d think imagine its both good security and basic solidarity with the people america genocides to not have fascist soldiers who have been probably indoctrinated by deed and brainwashing anywhere near positions of leadership in a small leftist org at the stage of struggle that does not require armed combat.
Its an expression of rightful disdain at one of the world’s worst fascist militaries who have never stopped committing genocide from the founding of their settler colony till now. Many people outside of america and its allies hate the us military to hell because the us military is often pointing guns at them, just like how everyone hates cops within the imperial core. They are the west’s occupation force for the third world. For many, the reality is that they are a genocidal force to be fought off.
I really don’t know about the Tsar being less genocidal, like the dude got pulled up a river by slaves trudging through hip deep mud with ropes attached to their fucking foreheads. If he had the resources America had the world would be fundamentally worse than it is now purely because the landowner class is more depraved and reactionary than the bourgeoisie
If anything, the Tsar is about as genocidal as the confederacy, which I think most can agree is far worse than the USA at the time.
Yeah I was referring more to the scale and length of the genocidal regimes plus the general depravity of the us military, sorry didn’t mean to minimize how evil the Tsar was, the Bolsheviks did a lot of good by destroying the tsarist empire.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
I mean not to demean the extent of American war crimes… However, the Russian imperial empire had just committed the Circassian genocide a couple decades before the revolution.
How do you think opsec is learned in the first place? I’m not saying to befriend an unapologetic rabid SS soldier. I’m saying there are plenty of people who are disenfranchised by the military who go on to train and lead revolutionary forces.
You can still disdain the military without disdaining former soldiers who learn class consciousness and now also disdain the military.
Yes…I know. My mother had to flee her country because the US installed a puppet dictatorship and she participated in a student uprising in the 80s. My grandfather had to hide in a hole for 2 years to evade US forces who were forcing inscription. We’ve lost communication to the majority of my family because the US continues to occupy half of my homeland.
If there is a revolution in the imperial core, you can guarantee that former US military will be involved. I’d rather there be a successful revolution than hold a grudge based on the choices people were forced into or chose out of ignorance when they were still teenagers.
My plan if I ever got drafted was just to frag my CO. Any private can do that. Not having an opportunity is about lack of conviction, will, and bravery.
I can literally cite two (recently) living examples of this: Mike Prysner and Aaron Bushnell.
One gave up a military career entirely after being deployed to Iraq once and dedicates his life to anti-war/ anti-imperialist activism to the point that he literally gatecrashes conventions that host his former commander-in-chief Bush Jr. to call him a mass murdering war criminal right in his face.
The other, was an active US soldier who became disillusioned with the Imperialist war machine after seeing the US help Israel carry out a livestreamed genocide for over a year, so much so that he wrote a manifesto disavowing his military associates and condemning the entire imperialist system and everyone that supports it, and shortly after decided to (regretfully) self-immolate in front of the Israeli embassy.
That in my opinion, should be the standard that all potential revolutionaries in the US military should follow. And DEFINITELY NOT someone like Graham Platner who hasn’t done a smidgen of what the former soldiers I just mentioned have done.
I would say these are examples of soldiers we are giving an opportunity to by appreciating their work and sacrifice. We are not dismissing their contributions by rote just because of their former affiliations.
Again, nothing I’ve written has been in the defense of Graham Planter. I’m just rebutting the claim that all former US soldiers should be held in absolute disdain.
“Opportunity” is not the same thing as “being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Zhukov and Chavez had to earn a lot of trust with their lives on the line in combat to get to where they were, especially Zhukov.
A few decades before that the americans had already ethnically cleansed north america. The russian empire was rightfully destroyed by the Bolsheviks while america still persists. Point being that american soldiers as part of a settler colonial ethnosupremacist anti communist military force are heavily indoctrinated to have deeply held reactionary beliefs. You dont have people like that anywhere near leadership of a communist org. Especially small ones that aren’t focused on combat at the moment. Why do you have to have former fascist shock troopers leading a workers organization that is meant to fight for the very working class who the leader has oppressed and marginalized? Why should workers have to rely on their oppressors as the rightful figureheads of their liberation?
How about learning from the people who the us military lost against and/or who have experience fighting them. Veterans can act as trainers but they shouldn’t be let near leadership positions for the same reason you don’t want “former neo nazis” in positions of leadership either.
Yeah but it’s fine not to especially for those who are oppressed by the us military. And for good reason. Look at how the former navyman itt reacted earlier to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the genocidal us military. Not saying he can’t change for the better, he should, it’s just that he’s one of the most politically advanced amongst them.
Yes as the counterrevolutionary fascist paramilitary sent to kill the revolutionaries.
Surely a successful revolution would be possible without having “former nazis” in charge.
And the first step to do that is by accepting they could be of service to the cause despite their prior affiliation.
Also "“being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Is your conditional, not mine.
Well, most of the time revolutions happen locally and the people who beat the US military are located across the globe?
Also trainers are leaders? I don’t know why you are nit picking at the use of leadership, that’s your claim and has nothing to do with my original argument.
Lol, I’m not saying there won’t be ex military counter revolutionary forces. But what leads you to believe there won’t be ex military revolutionary forces?
Can you give me any examples of successful revolutions that are made up of revolutionary fighters completely devoid of any combat experience? You can’t just pick up a rifle with your buds and stand against a trained fire team.
No not of the entire organization.
I won’t elaborate more on this, just know that there are ways to get around a distance barrier without attracting the attention of 3 letter agencies.
As if the masses are helpless fucks who can’t learn how to fight a guerilla war without having some “former nazi” in charge of the entire operation.
Earliest comment: “Pretty much every effective militant revolution in history were founded or led by a group of former military members”
I assumed that the “most fervent and militant leftist organizers” referred to in the first comment had major leadership positions within their organizations when I made the comment: “Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.”
This could have been a wrong assumption, the copes continued regardless as if it was not.
My point isn’t that “there will definitely be no ex fascist foot soldiers within a revolutionary movement”, its that its fucking ridiculous to have them in positions of leadership over small nonviolent leftist organizations when the struggle hasn’t turned violent. Bringing up Zhukov and Chavez is irrelevant because the stage of struggle during their time was already violent. Even when the struggle has turned violent these fucks need to prove their worth before being let anywhere near leadership over the organization.
Its just bizarre to start brown nosing “former fascist” soldiers in response to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the us military for being a ruthless genocidal white supremacist force that has destroyed many lives and continues to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hating them and responding to the hate with “but muh not all troops” is beyond unnecessary and serves to distract from the fact that they have helped commit genocide and should be regarded as such, ideally held accountable just like the wehrmacht/waffen SS/IOF.
Why do you think saying this “people can change” speech under a post about a USAmerican white supremacist Nazi makes your point more credible.
I don’t disagree with you on a fundamental level, but is this something you really want to have said here?
Ahh yes, because we can’t comment about a specific comment in a thread without vicariously making a comment about the original post? Do you think people lack the required nuance or the reading comprehension that they would make the assumption I’m making a statement supporting white supremacy?
I’m not white, my family isn’t even from a western nation. I swear, this is the one of the worst instances when it comes to people whitesplaining to poc what white supremacy is.
You aren’t being half as hard on me as I am on myself but also fuck you.
I’d rather have a million of my Iraqi and Afghani brothers be alive and I hope they haunt you forever.
Just as an aside. Afghans or Afghan can be used as the plural, Afghani is the currency and is often perceived as insulting to a lot of Afghans.
I volunteer with a group that helps provide healthcare for an Afghan refugee community and embarrassingly made this mistake in front of patients.
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So would I, asshole
You should apologize profusely or at least say nothing instead of calling this person an asshole.
You’re probably right but I react emotionally when people tell me to kill myself
Edit: especially when I didn’t need any prompting to do so in the first place
Literally no one told you to kill yourself, maybe think about why you took it that way and then log off from this site.
Stick around and help us dismantle the machine
That’s what I’m hopping for
Ill be real with you, big L take
I don’t have to be nice to people who think I’ve done unforgivable wrong and they are sweet innocent niceness
I know what I did was wrong and I nearly killed myself over it
Just because you know something you did was wrong doesn’t entitle you forgiveness, let alone from those affected.
Your entire framing for the comment is so wild to the point I don’t know where to start.
Edit: used ableist language during my second point, edited out.
Never said I was entitled to forgiveness. What I said I don’t have to be nice to people who want me to kill myself. Nice ableism btw
Fixed the problem part of my comment.
You also don’t have to go out of your way to actively lash out at them regarding their anger towards those that harmed them and/or their loved ones, just because you were a guilty participant. If it’s bad for your mental, block and move on.
Edit: fixed big grammatical error
It was the other way around, they lashed out at me, and well beyond you did bad and should feel bad, would have been right about that. I get to lash out at people who tell me to kill myself when I very nearly did, and I don’t make any apologies.
Unless there is something I’m not seeing they lashed out at soldiers, specifically soldiers that served the U.S., without any consideration of if anyone here was one and you took it personally.
Do you take the same stance when people proclaim their utter distain and hatred for Americans or have you just not seen that yet?
what part?
I see the condescension, hostility and the rage-filled pity begging has not left you since you realized that joining the world leader in genocide is wrong.
The whole vet/military shtick of telling everyone you feel so bad about yourself is embarrassing. Grow the fuck up you clearly haven’t.
So for clarification, do you mean you are former US military?
Yeah I was a third generation naval officer and at the time I thought I was signing up for any other normal job. I realized what a monster I was when Obama blew up his third hospital for the month and I resigned immediately
Noted, real talk though you should never ever tell dangerous unamerican countries and organizations anything you learned about the navy during your time of service, especially pieces of information that might be confidential. Even if it is out of date, any information is good information for those undemocratic evil foreign actors. So you shouldn’t do it because that would be treason and treason is bad!
Oh it’s better than that I had ts/sci with sap/sto access lol. Just wish I knew how to sell it to someone
Although this is still treason and bad, if you sell such information although this will anger your countrymen they will secretly be very proud! A true american capitalist, nothing is for free in life. This is why you should never ever give away this information for free, the demon CCP, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, the list goes on, the united states has many enemy someones on the hunt for intelligence. Always be vigilant!
Now if only I could get a handler