I think this demands some heavy “no investigation, no right to speak” enforcement. If someone with an informed perspective on the material reality for Chinese sex workers has something to say about it, let them, but if people wanna make strong statements for or against by just assuming that their understanding of sex work in the West maps perfectly to China then we should have no patience for it.
The world would be a much better place if we all read 1000 times more than we wrote and we were mostly reading substantial information, instead of trash produced by other people who are reading trash.
I admit I probably read only 10 times as much as I write, and I most read this website.
Disappointing but expected. I’d like to live under a government that doesn’t try to get involved in my private life, but it seems there’s nowhere for that.
There will always be people who enjoy providing sex as a kind of community service.
People sell sex for money when the alternative is starvation and/or homelessness
Yes. But this is true of labor in general. It doesn’t mean plumbers won’t exist under communism. They will just look very different than how they do now, they won’t do what they do because the alternative is poverty or death, but will do it because it feels good to be skilled at something and to use those skills to improve the lives of the people around them. It’s not a complete perfect 1:1 analogy (nothing ever is), since for example most people have sex though most people don’t do plumbing work (though it’s reasonable to expect plumbing work will be something more people know about and do on their own as well). But that doesn’t change the fact that there will be people who enjoy it, work to become skilled at it, and provide it like I said as a kind of community service. That service is still socially necessary labor. As another analogy, therapists will also probably be vastly less necessary under communism, but there will still need to be people specially trained in helping the members of the community that need or desire help with their emotional issues who will still seek the services of a therapist (trauma will always exist even if we can reduce its incidence a thousand fold by abolishing capitalism), and as such, that socially necessary role, that need in the community for therapy, will be provided by someone who fulfills that role for their community. There is no reason to think that sex work won’t be in the same sot of position as therapy - far less common or needed in a society that isn’t sick and twisted by capitalism, but still a role that some will seek and thus provide a service and benefit to society. Yet another analogy: There will always be exhibitionists who enjoy expressing their sexuality with groups of people who enjoy watching them do so. Just as there will always be actors who enjoy performing the act of story-telling by presenting themselves as a character in that story, and there will always be people who enjoy watching them do so. A socially necessary role.
So it really bothers me when people insist that someone like me who has had positive experiences doing sex work and who took pride in bringing joy to others via that labor “simply won’t exist in a communist society.” Well, we’ll see since communism has yet to be achieved and no one knows exactly what it will look like (something even Marx pointed out), but that we don’t know how a given current profession will manifest under communism is true of all professions. And under transitional socialism, you can be damn sure that sex work will still exist, especially considering it does in some form in every current AES country.
There will always be people who enjoy providing sex as a kind of community service.
The problem isn’t sex as such, it’s sex work. It’s not a ban on sex as an activity but as an industry.
I understand that workers will find ways to embrace their proletarian condition of life. I don’t want to work for a wage, but to the extent that I must, I look for work that somehow fulfills me. But I’m skeptical of the conclusion that, essentially, exploitation only exists if the victim is aware of it. Enjoying a job doesn’t negate the exploitation.
The way to abolish exploitation is to abolish its conditions of existence. The solution is not merely to make it tolerable. This applies to sex work all the same as to wage labor in general.
You seem to want social equality for sex work. We’re all proletarians and a job is a job, why cut off an avenue for making money?
But the cold reality is that sex work is not actually viewed that way in society and especially not by employers. Revenge porn exists as a concept precisely because sex work, and open sex in general, causes harm if linked to one’s real identity. Yet, I’ve never heard of someone “outed” as a former plumber and left unable to find work, or fired from a job they actively hold like that one story about the teacher fired for being on OF. This industry goes beyond “simple” exploitation of labor and takes it to a different degree of coercion.
Prostitution literally can’t exist in a communist society. At best, you could exchange gifts for sex.
When defined as you did, by necessitating that prostitution be about the exchange of sex for money, then true, it will not exist in a communist society. But if you define any kind of labor as something done in exchange for money, then that form of labor won’t exist under communism, considering communism is, you know, a moneyless society. What will you exchange for the labor done by a person who provides you a skilled, professional massage under communism? Not money, but that doesn’t mean that all masseuses and those who seek their skills will cease to exist.
Sex work will still exist just as much as any service work will still exist.
Right. I was only half joking, and the half that was tongue-in-cheek was only because it’s not very likely that’s how China would deal with it (though it would be funny and imo very cool if they did). I very much agree with you and if you’re curious what I think about it, see my reply to quarrk.
It’s code geass’ protagonist who gets a magic super power to mind control people exactly one time and starts a wild plot to overthrow the american-british mecha empire while disguised as an edgy freedom fighter / terrorist all at the same time keeping his normal high-school life separate and getting into hijinks with his school friends.
over/under this causes a struggle session
I think this demands some heavy “no investigation, no right to speak” enforcement. If someone with an informed perspective on the material reality for Chinese sex workers has something to say about it, let them, but if people wanna make strong statements for or against by just assuming that their understanding of sex work in the West maps perfectly to China then we should have no patience for it.
Well said.
Why can’t the rest of the internet work like this
The world would be a much better place if we all read 1000 times more than we wrote and we were mostly reading substantial information, instead of trash produced by other people who are reading trash.
I admit I probably read only 10 times as much as I write, and I most read this website.
eh I don’t think a lot of people have doubts that the government of China has a socially conservative bent. It’s not that surprising
Disappointing but expected. I’d like to live under a government that doesn’t try to get involved in my private life, but it seems there’s nowhere for that.
Allowing rampant corporate pimps is not “staying out of your private life”. Corporate pimps have no rights
Uh aktually, Chinese sex workers having their labor value stolen by a Western e-pimp whose owner is a rabid Zionist is good.
Nationalize OnlyFans.
Kinda, yeah. Nationalizing the sex trade would be a good idea
Existing in a banned form creates a black market for exploitation, allowing it in privatized form allows for the same thing but not illegal.
just a part of human society we’ll have to figure out eventually
Class society. Not human society.
People sell sex for money when the alternative is starvation and/or homelessness
If that wasn’t a concern (ie communism) then the coercive aspect would be gone
There will always be people who enjoy providing sex as a kind of community service.
Yes. But this is true of labor in general. It doesn’t mean plumbers won’t exist under communism. They will just look very different than how they do now, they won’t do what they do because the alternative is poverty or death, but will do it because it feels good to be skilled at something and to use those skills to improve the lives of the people around them. It’s not a complete perfect 1:1 analogy (nothing ever is), since for example most people have sex though most people don’t do plumbing work (though it’s reasonable to expect plumbing work will be something more people know about and do on their own as well). But that doesn’t change the fact that there will be people who enjoy it, work to become skilled at it, and provide it like I said as a kind of community service. That service is still socially necessary labor. As another analogy, therapists will also probably be vastly less necessary under communism, but there will still need to be people specially trained in helping the members of the community that need or desire help with their emotional issues who will still seek the services of a therapist (trauma will always exist even if we can reduce its incidence a thousand fold by abolishing capitalism), and as such, that socially necessary role, that need in the community for therapy, will be provided by someone who fulfills that role for their community. There is no reason to think that sex work won’t be in the same sot of position as therapy - far less common or needed in a society that isn’t sick and twisted by capitalism, but still a role that some will seek and thus provide a service and benefit to society. Yet another analogy: There will always be exhibitionists who enjoy expressing their sexuality with groups of people who enjoy watching them do so. Just as there will always be actors who enjoy performing the act of story-telling by presenting themselves as a character in that story, and there will always be people who enjoy watching them do so. A socially necessary role.
So it really bothers me when people insist that someone like me who has had positive experiences doing sex work and who took pride in bringing joy to others via that labor “simply won’t exist in a communist society.” Well, we’ll see since communism has yet to be achieved and no one knows exactly what it will look like (something even Marx pointed out), but that we don’t know how a given current profession will manifest under communism is true of all professions. And under transitional socialism, you can be damn sure that sex work will still exist, especially considering it does in some form in every current AES country.
The problem isn’t sex as such, it’s sex work. It’s not a ban on sex as an activity but as an industry.
I understand that workers will find ways to embrace their proletarian condition of life. I don’t want to work for a wage, but to the extent that I must, I look for work that somehow fulfills me. But I’m skeptical of the conclusion that, essentially, exploitation only exists if the victim is aware of it. Enjoying a job doesn’t negate the exploitation.
The way to abolish exploitation is to abolish its conditions of existence. The solution is not merely to make it tolerable. This applies to sex work all the same as to wage labor in general.
You seem to want social equality for sex work. We’re all proletarians and a job is a job, why cut off an avenue for making money?
But the cold reality is that sex work is not actually viewed that way in society and especially not by employers. Revenge porn exists as a concept precisely because sex work, and open sex in general, causes harm if linked to one’s real identity. Yet, I’ve never heard of someone “outed” as a former plumber and left unable to find work, or fired from a job they actively hold like that one story about the teacher fired for being on OF. This industry goes beyond “simple” exploitation of labor and takes it to a different degree of coercion.
People sell sex for money when
the alternative is starvation and/or homelessnessthere exists moneyProstitution literally can’t exist in a communist society. At best, you could exchange gifts for sex.
When defined as you did, by necessitating that prostitution be about the exchange of sex for money, then true, it will not exist in a communist society. But if you define any kind of labor as something done in exchange for money, then that form of labor won’t exist under communism, considering communism is, you know, a moneyless society. What will you exchange for the labor done by a person who provides you a skilled, professional massage under communism? Not money, but that doesn’t mean that all masseuses and those who seek their skills will cease to exist.
Sex work will still exist just as much as any service work will still exist.
Right. I was only half joking, and the half that was tongue-in-cheek was only because it’s not very likely that’s how China would deal with it (though it would be funny and imo very cool if they did). I very much agree with you and if you’re curious what I think about it, see my reply to quarrk.
OurFans.
What is this? What is it referencing? And why do they have as much leeeeg as Kronii?
It’s code geass’ protagonist who gets a magic super power to mind control people exactly one time and starts a wild plot to overthrow the american-british mecha empire while disguised as an edgy freedom fighter / terrorist all at the same time keeping his normal high-school life separate and getting into hijinks with his school friends.
To add to Alaskaball’s comment, this character’s codename is Zero.