Since we have a lot of racist redditors coming over here catching bans for their historical ignorance about the June 4th incident, here are some resources:
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn’t a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
- Latin American diplomat eyewitness account of June 3-4 events on Tiananmen Square wikileaks (PDF)
- There was a Spanish television crew that covered the entire Tiananmen Square incident as it unfolded. Their footage showed that there was no massacre. A few things worthy of pointing out - Liu Xiaobo and Hou Dejian, both student leaders of the Tiananmen protests, have been recorded as saying that they never saw anyone killed at the protests.
- The protest movement followed the line of “color revolutions”, in which the US tried to destabilize and create counter-revolutions in eastern Europe and Latin America after the fall of the USSR. The strategy was to stir division within and without, by inundating the media with news of massacres of “peaceful”, pro-capitalist / market reformers.
- The defeat of a counter revolution in China.
- Interviews from some of the student leaders.
- An account from a resident.
- Tiananmen Square “Massacre”, A Propaganda Hoax.
- The truth about the Tiananmen square protests
God. Its so nice for someone to link resorces. Idk wtf was up with the MLs Ive ran into in the past but they’d just yell at you and never provide any sources. It’s not exactly easy to find shit on China that isn’t western AF if you don’t know what you are doing. Which admittedly I do not. I’ve always had to use others to find good sources of information outside the imperialist umbrella.
All that is to say. Hey! Thanks a lot!!
Unfortunately, I think the reason this happens is because it’s difficult to remain calm and optimistic within a western-dominated internet. Some comrades react emotionally, rather than trying to create new comrades, either out of exhaustion or a belief that it’s too difficult.
I think trying to raise the quality of how we engage with people as communists is one of the more important tasks with organizing.
No probs!
Never feel bad about asking for a source, or investigating the sources people post. Imperialist propaganda can’t be debunked without rigorous investigation, and good journalists / investigators are out there, as much as western states would like to make them invisible (or kill them).
I forget exactly how the saying goes, might be from the Buddha: “3 things can’t stay hidden for long. The sun, the moon, and the truth”.
Westerners aren’t helpless innocents whose minds are injected with atrocity propaganda, science fiction-style; they’re generally smug bourgeois proletarians who intelligently seek out as much racist propaganda as they can get their hands on. This is because it fundamentally makes them feel better about who they are and how they live. The psychic and material costs are rationally worth the benefits. -Roderic Day
All the libs in the comments really living up to the quote.
Lemmitors really didn’t sent their best to this thread.
The Amerikkkan randomly calling me racist while being racist was fun if entirely unproductive. Same with the Canadian settler.
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Seconding this, @QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml’s comments have been fantastic lately, and absolutely aren’t going to waste.
Thank you very glad to hear
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Thank you always great to hear.
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Yeah definitely I always make sure to report any actual racism etc I see but it is fun to blow off steam arguing with/making fun of them at the same time even if it’s entirely unproductive.
Speaking from experience. Still be careful. Even when you think you are blowing off steam, more could be going on then you think. I didnt realize how miserable I had gotten till I had take some time away.
Arguing with randos on the internet can honestly really fuck with a person.
If it helps, it was fun to see you owning them
I just finished reading this article today a few hours ago! it felt like such an eerily perfect dissection of liberals it is incredible impressive, it doesn’t reduce their annoyance but it does provide an easier way to deal with it
Link?
My bad for not linking above, here it is: https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels
Thanks I’m looking forward to reading later
No problem!
The operative word being smug
Alexa, what is the definition of “irony”?
This is just smug for “no you”
We literally have the video of tankman climbing up the tank and not being flattened, it was even reported back in the day, but people downvoting you can’t be bothered to google that
Bro literally had a conversation with the soldier in the tank.
He said “why are you leaving the square already? Turn this thing around and finish off those colour revolution assholes!”
I keep reading this but I never found the source. Is this actually true?
I was joking. Nobody knows what he said.
But it’s a fact that the video was from June 5th, the day after the violence, and that the tanks were leaving the square.
I heard another version. According to that version, the man was a former soldier who recognized the tank model and wanted to know where was it built and who were inside it.
I think the downvotes are because the post implies that the Chinese did not kill anyone, when hundreds were murdered. What became of tank man is unknown, but it’s clear he wasn’t killed by one of those tanks.
I heard it was millions, and that evil communist xi xingping plans of doing it again and name it the scary communist leap forward after his favorite scary communist dictator mowz dong
It was thousands. Perhaps 10s of thousands. You don’t care, why comment?
why stop there? maybe they were hundreds of thousands, even millions!
And Iran, they killed 40 thousand!
Are you being sarcastic?
Because, and anyone correct me if I’m wrong,
most people here know that what happened during the Tianenmen square insurrection was:- Soldiers, mostly the army choir, are ordered to come unarmed and clear the square after months of students protesting in favor of Usonian state-backed exploitative economic teachings.
- 100+ Soldiers killed, mostly the army choir, by insurrectionists at a road adjacent to the square.
- Remaining army choir soldiers lead the protesters away through song from the square.
- 20+ Insurrectionists killed, as armed soldiers arrived and a battle broke out, on the same road.
- 100+ protesters killed, as a chaotic indirect consequence of the earlier insurrectionists’ actions, at a train station miles away.
- Tanks arrive at the square to prevent further escalation.
- Tanks leave the square as situation deescalated and tank man blocks the tanks for a while, then leaves, on the same road again.
These insurrectionists went a lot further than the Usonian Jan 6th protest mostly known as the “Freedom Plaza massacre” where “peaceful protesters” entered the capitol building in order to “stop election fraud” where “perhaps 10s of thousands civilian lives were killed as US security opened fire at these peaceful protesters”, because unlike CIA-backed insurrectionists, these “peaceful protesters” were ordered by their higher ups to leave immediately instead of being encouraged to block the US army from arriving at Capitol Hill or attack the US army for that matter.
Do you have a source for your estimate of deaths? 100+ is very ambiguous since it includes any number >100, which seems already beyond contention.
Probably the official CPC figure of 241 killed in total. Most of the serious estimates broadly agree - NSA said 180-500, and the Tiananmen Mothers organisation have identified 198 of the dead.
Since we’re evidently reading the same Wikipedia article, I’ll point out that those are among the lowest estimates on the page and the Beijing hospital record was 478 dead and 920 wounded.
But these are all very different numbers from what was commented.
I think the numbers are a bit off - official Chinese figures were ~20 student protestors, ~20 police and army, and about 200 other protestors were killed.
I didn’t know i was on a joke sub, I guess.
Don’t you mean hundreds of thousands, you redfash tankie?
You don’t understand the scope. It was hundreds of thousands. It was hundreds of millions. Evil Chinese communism knows no bounds and will consume all. I will take all your social credit points now for myself, silly American
There is video of him being removed/taken away by others. He certainly was not crushed.
I love whenever someone posts the “tank man” photo because the liberals always reveal themselves like roaches scattering across the room when a lightswitch is turned on. Mod ban hammer squish them all plz and thank you.
I love your portfolio.
aww, you’re sweet, thank you.
You are so very welcome. Thank you for sharing it with us!
Remember who didn’t stop for you
Oddly this isn’t what officers mean when they say ‘weaponizing a vehicle’.
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Literally what tankman did to a tank and still he walked away. Imagine attacking an evil seeseepee tank that is monitoring every citizen individually in case they insult putin or whatever, climbing on top of it and everything and you just, walk away after??
It’s okay for the bad person to do the bad thing because what are you stupid? If you’re a victim it’s your fault! You can’t just ignore all the context. You’re supposed to ignore all the context EXCEPT the part where they weren’t nice to the bad person!
Americans think they know about Tienanmen Square 1989 while themselves living in a police state / surveillance state.
No one talks about the Philadelphia police bombing (yes, a literal bombing) of a Black residential neighborhood in 1985.
No one talks about the police brutality against peaceful anti-Vietnam war groups in the 1960s/70s. Veterans who were drafted to fight an immoral war of aggression overseas were then beaten by the police for protesting that war. In 1970, the Ohio national guard opened fire on college students protesting at Kent State.
Eric Garner, Tamir Rice (12 years old), Daniel Shaver, Philando Castile, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Renee Good, Alex Pretti and far, far too many people have been murdered on camera. Millions around the world protested the routine extrajudicial killings of unarmed Americans. But police killings increased every year during the Biden administration and Trump continues to throw people in the back of unmarked vans.
Americans judge the PRC (and every socialist country) by their own retelling of its worst blunder in history; Americans judge the US by it’s latest controversy while forgetting everything else.
I’ve not seen one mention of Tlatelolco massacre which was propped up by the CIA through the mexican goverment.
Look up the Bonus Army
The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
The nerve of saying can personally confirm a complete bullshit lmao.
I was referring to blocked articles specifically about the incident on the internet. I did not know about the curated version taught in universities.
I can already picture you going to uni, running into a history class, and screaming about fake news (In english of course lol)
Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Yeah no information, it’s only taught as part of the mandatory “outline of modern Chinese history” at university.
In that link, they refer to it as:
“The 1989 political turmoil and subsidence.”
That is a really weird way to call a massacre, don’t you think?
Please we all know that the Government hides the search results in China if you look for it. Or are you going to deny that?
Like, why lie?
China bans Tiananmen Square-related web search terms https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18321548
https://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search-engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/04/tiananmen-square-online-search-censored
Because massacre is poor categorization of what was a violent clash between rioters and the military acting as riot police. Like why pretend to be a leftists when you’re a Canadian settler shitlib. Clearly not very good at categorising things. Also when did I deny their were restrictions around what is a very sensitive event that had western backing? All I said was that it is taught about as part of a mandatory course at university. The idea it’s fully blacked out is western chauvinist fantasy and honestly not even a very creative one. You are not very intelligent are you?
Go get em, Mr. Shlong!
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
Canadian Seltler shitllib? Hahaha. Cute, friend. You know nothing about me.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is. That is my point and provided proof that it is and I can do that without lowering to your level of insults. Clearly, I hit a nerve, it is okay Comrade. Be happy.
There is a reason why put a link in Chinese in an English speaking forum without translaltion.
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
People die when rioters (whose leaders did interviews explaining their plan to incite massive violence and flee to America) clash with the military did I deny that? It was categorically not a massacre.
You know nothing about me.
From replying to you before I know you’re Canadian and a self proclaimed lib thus 90% chance you’re white thus a settler. So taking it all together Canadian settler shitlib.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Again didn’t check your history we’ve simply talked before. Also holy chauvinism really reinforcing the whole settler shitlib. And it’s CPC not CCP.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is.
Massive twisting of what was said. He said you couldn’t find any information when in fact it is part of the mandatory university course which is all I pointed out.
Again I must ask are you genuinely unintelligent?
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
Not white. You know nothing about me. Keep Shilling, Comrade. Oh, we talked before? Is that so? Oh, fair, but I do not remember you, nor care to know you. It is true that I am a Liberal and I will give you the decency of not being as petty as you, since I do not have to rely on insults when I have facts and sources.
Again, all you have proven is that I hit a nerve. Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
For anyone to look, like this is nothing new. This is how China would change results on actual internet searches. https://imgur.com/a/vbkFA
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Anyway, stop lying. That point remains.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
So, either they do not know, which I fully doubt, if you hear what she says, or they do know, which is the case,but do not want to publicly discuss it on camera and risk getting any type of trouble. Take your pick.
From 2008: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuuddurPLV8&t=86
Rely in common sense comrade. Have a great one, Cheers.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
I genuinely can’t believe a person can be this dumb. Did you ever consider the fact that Tank Man is completely irrelevant for history and it’s only a fucking image for propaganda? Why anyone knows about the image? Because is the image about the square that appears when people talk about the event. This guy is completely irrelevant.
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
They literally immolated and lynched military guards to start the riot. You are extremely fucking arrogant for how little you understand anything.
when I have facts and sources
Lmao. What you actually have is a chauvinist fantasy and an immense arrogance.
Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
you have provided no criticism just a vast misrepresentation of what I said and the events in question.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
Again not what we were talking about he said there was no information implying and perpetuating the nonsense lie that the date/event is scrubbed from history which is factually incorrect in the same way saying Winnie the pooh is banned is factually incorrect.
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Chauvinism.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
He’s famous because who he is and what he did are completely reframed in the west as some sacrificial martyr jumping Infront of tanks (generally with the implication that he was ran over) whereas in reality he was a random man who wanted the tanks to return to the square and was ushered off by passers by not really a revolutionary figure or particularly relevant to the event as a whole. You people are so insufferably arrogant your vision and imagination must be reality.
Rely in common sense comrade.
“Just believe the western propoganda”. I’m no comrade of yours you Hitlerite settler.
You’re a racist Han bigot. Don’t bother relying. I don’t communicate with stupid racists.
I’m not Han lmao. The irony of you making a racist assumption calling me racist. 🤣
What is the bottom photo?
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Renée Good was her name
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The way a lot of Lemmy users try to whitewash the CCPs past atrocities is really embarrassing.
“Is an image of some tanks” is the heaviest lifting fucking sentence I’ve seen in a long ass time.
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Do you support the Jan 6 insurgency, yes or no?
Only a few hundred people died, not thousands. And some people may have been armed! So it’s fine to kill scores of people.
“Some people” aka insurrectionists were not maybe armed.
These insurrectionists bombed and killed soldiers. And THEY. BOMBED. FIRST.
There is no maybe in this scenario just as much as there is no maybe in the Jan 6th insurrection.
What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country?
Just stand there and take some more?
What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?The tanks were driving away and didn’t kill anyone this time
They didn’t kill him because he posed no threat unlike the terrorists that bombed their convoy.
End of story.What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country? Just stand there and take some more? What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?
You edited your post so I’ll reply again: The test, which America and China both repeatedly fail, is having professional law enforcement and soldiers kill their own citizens. This is one of the most utter, final failures of government. There are plenty of options besides killing people, and when you take up arms and swear oaths to protect your country, and then kill citizens of your own country, you break your oath.
Your argument fails because there’s no need to actually intercede and halt protests. In the case of the pro-democracy movement crushed by the PLA in June 1989, martial law and attacks on protesters had begun en masse 2 weeks before the massacre. There was a steady escalation of violence leading up to the riots in early june. So the idea that the protestors “struck first” (even if that is a justification, which it isn’t, is false. The facts, which aren’t in dispute, were that the anti-corruption policies implemented to answer the complaints of the protestors were well-received, and further reforms were desired by everyone, not just the student protestors. Everyone except the local officials who were at risk of losing their positions by a government overhaul from authoritarianism to democracy.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
- Through wiretaps and arrests
- Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student’s ranks
- Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
Instead, even though 300,000 people were protesting that period, the actions of an interim commander who acted on poor discipline and leadership, directly lead to at least hundreds, and possibly thousands, of his own people, in a small section of the city. That is a spectacular failure, and the end of a certain degree of human autonomy in China.
This is coming from someone who actually thinks China is leading the world in many ways. I do genuinely believe that China is actually less corrupt than many other nations, and the high degree of social cohesion in-country is something that gives them strength. Like I said in my first post: lots to admire, but this ain’t it.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
Through wiretaps and arrests Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student’s ranks Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
A) There was no “massacre”
B) We have no idea if these tactics weren’t also used, and
C) Let’s be honest, if they had done these things and it had worked, you people would never shut the fuck up about that either.
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Why is this in c/memes?
Because the libs in here are walking memes
Here on .ml we can enjoy content past cat videos.
No way…. This is a bridge too far for me
Because repetition is an effective way of convincing people to accept a narrative, and meme channels tend to be more widely subbed than others.
The funniest part is, repetition was the exact method used by the US and aligned countries to convince everyone that there was a massacre lmfao
Goebbels’ ghost should be embarrassed he couldn’t pull it off nearly as well.
He was seriously just an amateur compared to US propaganda apparatus, there’s even clear proof how he believed US really do protect it’s citizens, when U-boot sunk SS Athenia 3 september 1939 on which 28 US citizens died, Hitler, Goebbels, Donitz, Raeder immediately panicked that US will use that as casus belli like with Lusitania and they censored and propagandised entire case so much that the fact it was U-boot that sunk the ship was only accidentally revealed at Nuremburg trials.
This is interesting. I wanted to learn more about the propagandizing of it. Do you know of reliable English sites to do that?
Iirc i first read about it in book about WW2 on sea by Janusz Piekałkiewicz and also seen it in some British TV, and it’s on wiki too, so even western libs admit that happened, though they will never go to the conclusion how that compare US and 3rd Reich propaganda apparatus.
Thanks, I saw the Wikipedia entry but didn’t read the whole thing because Wikipedia. I’ll do that, later.
Do you… think that there were no protestor deaths at tiananmen square?
There were no deaths on the square, only around Beijing. The western atrocity porn of the PLA running over unarmed students on the square is entirely fake.
There were both protestor deaths as well as PLA personnel deaths (which outnumbered protestor death, actually). But even the US diplomat who was present through the whole event said that there were riots and riot control, but not a massacre.
It’s only almost 40 years later that the continuous lying about history has twisted people’s perception of what actually happened.
Even American newspapers didn’t call it a massacre until much later lmao. Probably because the evidence of many of the protestors meeting with American officials before the riots was readily available.
Thankfully, such protests/colour revolutions are impossible now in China, so no regime change can be carried out by the US
Pla deaths outnumbered protestor deaths? Jeez, what’re you smoking? Even the Chinese govt didn’t claim that. And why are you thankful that ‘protests are impossible now’? Do you truly relish the political disenfranchisement of the populace so much? Smh my head
Do you truly relish the political disenfranchisement of the populace so much?
If you truly believe we are disenfranchised because the American backed regime change failed I truly feel sorry for you. China has one of the most involved political systems I have heard of. We have constant interaction with our elected representatives at the town/city and county level through the local party offices where feedback criticism and petitions for changes are constant. We are listened to and our ideas are constantly worked on and applied in different ways as satisfying the people and earning achievements is how you get your peers to elect you to the provincial and national level. There is a reason that even from Harvard’s studies they found we have a high satisfaction with our government (95+%).
protests are impossible now
This is also a falsehood we have protests but they are about real single issues as opposed to regime change events backed by outside agitators.
Can’t tell you how much your sympathy means to me, comrade
The working classes are in power in the PRC, not the opposite. They also have sovereignty over their internet and media, rather than letting western countries foment regime change.
It’s cool how you deny the agency and personhood of the protestors by outright stating that they were all plants by ‘western countries’. Very enlightened!
Yawn, try harder.
No, I relish watching imperialist ambitions crumble lol. I hope it happens in every country where the Western powers attempt a colour revolution. And I hope that people that collaborate with imperialist powers get executed for treason.
Idk whether you’re ignorant or malicious, but materialism will always win :)
Imperialism is bound to implode. You can hate the CPC and wish for the people’s revolution to fail, but in the end, it’ll always win, because they’ve understood materialism. Conversely, it’s inevitable that Western countries will implode and collapse because they can’t survive without the exploitation of us third worlders.
Count your days buddy boy. When our time comes, we will make no apologies for the terror
Outstanding to me that my only actual claim – that civilian humans were in fact killed during the infamous protests – is one that you folks actually do accept, albeit reluctantly, but y’all still got your knickers in a twist and are ascribing all sorts of stereotypes to me in your head.
Right, and one was taken before the murder of THOUSANDS of civilians. Those tanks and trucks full of soldiers opened fire on the crowds of students.
Damn dude being an anticommunist is so easy, you can just make shit up and as long as it FEELS right you can just say it with your whole chest, and proceed to ignore people who actually know what you’re talking about.
Fuckin sweet
Anyway, show me literally any evidence of a tank firing its weapons that day
The tanks shown were leaving the square, which was evacuated peacefully. Even wikipedia backs this up:
In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
I gotta admit I chuckled a bit when I saw where this was posted…
Why?
I guess the downvotes know exactly why ^^
Well let’s say tanks are pictured…
There are 457 upvotes.and 93 downvotes at the time of writing. Tanks being pictured isn’t ironic at all, considering this meme is pro-China and anti-US.
Well it’s tankies vs nazis, both authoritarian. I don’t think there’s good guys pictured… Yet the side that drives war tanks are hinted to be good guys… And well we are on lemmy.ml
Liberalism, famously not “authoritarian” despite sending riot cops to beat down schoolkids for being against Palestinian genocide
You really think those are “liberalists”?!
Why do you guys have such a black/white view of the world? There’s more room than just authoritarians, and authoritarianism and liberalism are somewhat antagonists anyways.
Lol. “Why are you so black and white? Don’t you know that there’s liberalism(the good guys) and everyone else is authoritarian(bad guys)!”
I mean on the other hand Marx was anarchist (though with the exception to have authoritarianism as means to change the system, which I don’t agree with, because it’s also unrealistic to assume that people in charge just throw away their power).
I think having Authoritarianism no matter how, just gravitates towards people that should definitely be not in charge. We see this everywhere. Power corrupts and dehumanizes.
Marx was the polar opposite of an anarchist in many ways. Marx supported collectivization into one unified system, anarchists support communalization into countless decentrally linked systems. Marx supported dialectical and historical materialism, anarchists often fall into idealist and subjectivist trappings. Marx developed scientific socialism, while anarchism is largely utopian. Anarchists can be good comrades, but Marx was not an anarchist.
Power is not a supernatural corrupting force, this too is an idealist argument.
It’s good for workers to have state authority, rather than capitalists. Both have authority, but communists use it to uplift the people and defeat the Nazis.
I have yet to see an authoritarian “state” that I consider communist (and that just doesn’t give it a bad name and fuel for western propaganda) that “uplifts the people” (and doesn’t repress them)…
It’s true though, that it’s probably better than capitalistic states (mostly, because all the systems we have are a mixture of all kinds of ideologies), I think China as example certainly does a better job than the USA at this point (various metrics, like addiction, mental/physical health etc. backs this as well).
Non the less, communism in its core is anti-authoritarism.
There have been many socialist states, both past and present. Examples include the PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, DPRK, Laos, and the former USSR. In all of these countries, life expectancy, literacy rates, economic democratization, and more have skyrocketed. Life expectancies in the USSR and PRC doubled. Using only the USSR as an example, as it’s the classic one pointed to as “authoritarian,” it’s clear that analyzing the facts at hand points to tremendous success.
The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.
Literacy rates, societal guarantees in the 1936 constitution, reports on the healthcare system over time, and more are good sources for these claims.
The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about, and today we have Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference.
When it comes to social progressivism, the soviet union was among the best out of their peers, so instead we must look at who was actually repressed outside of the norm. In the USSR, it was the capitalist class, the kulaks, the fascists who were repressed. This is out of necessity for any socialist state. When it comes to working class freedoms, however, the soviet union represented a dramatic expansion. Soviet progressivism was documented quite well in Albert Syzmanski’s Human Rights in the Soviet Union.
The truth, when judged based on historical evidence and contextualization, is that socialism was the best thing to happen to Russia in the last few centuries, and its absence has been devastating.
Death rates spiked:
And wealth disparity skyrocketed alongside the newly impoverished majority:
Capitalism brought with it skyrocketing poverty rates, drug abuse, prostitution, homelessness, crime rates, and lowered life expectancy. An estimated 7 million people died due to the dissolution of socialism and reintroduction of capitalism, and the large majority of post-soviet citizens regret its fall. A return to socialism is the only path forward for the post-soviet countries.
When you look at the US Empire and western Europe as having higher quality of life than the USSR, you are looking at the benefits of imperialism, colonialism, and neocolonialism and wishing the USSR also practiced this, instead of helping liberate colonies and the global south. Russia in particular was a semi-feudal backwater in 1917, and made it to space 5 decades later. The USSR was not the picture of wealth, but was for its time the picture of development and rapid progress.
It isn’t the socialist countries giving western countries ammo for propaganda, it’s just western propagandists twisting them. Communism is pro-worker authority, not against authority in general, as it’s through worker-authority that class and the state can be abolished down the line alone.
Oh no, how do I tell the millions of Chinese communists that you, the main character of life who clearly hasn’t read enough Marx, don’t consider them to be communist
Hell yeah dude, you’re 12
Ah you’re also not missing in the party. Nah I’m not, I’m just realistic…
Go back to reddit
