I suppose you could cast see invisibility or true seeing first? But… yeah if I’m GMing you can just target the invisible wall, fuck that. Same goes for how RAW it’s nearly impossible to destroy the red layer of a prismatic wall because every spell that deals cold damage explicitly only targets creatures
I’ve never liked arbitrary spell targeting restrictions. I say if you want to fire blindly around cover or into a fog cloud you should be able to. It doesn’t come up very often and because it’s easy for players to understand that they’ll have a very high chance of missing and losing the spell slot.
Most of the time I think it’s because the spell calls for a saving throw and there isn’t a mechanic for what a wall’s Con save ought to be. That’s not a unsolvable problem by any means, but I assume that’s why the restrictions exist
But yeah, going with the flow at the table is much more fun. We can bodge a solution here. Roll it as a spellcasting attack for now
If I was doing it that way (which would be fine in my opinion) I’d want to do the same for other attacks like the fighter swinging a flametongue sword at whichever layer it is that needs fire damage. I just suggested the attack roll version because it brings it into line with other approaches
I think spells that target the spirit of a target shouldn’t be able to be fired blind - that’s what i would let it depend on. A cold ray doesn’t need a visible target, but everything mind affecting that is not AoE will need it.
I actually think it’s a fair restriction for spells that require sight. It imposes a somewhat interesting limit on casters, especially since a lot of spells still do something on a miss.
Edit (literally 10 seconds after submitting my comment): is the problem that a literal reading of this would suggest that even if more than one creature is caught in the cone, only one takes the damage?
On a tangenty note, this is one of the reasons I find board games and TTRPGs super fun: DnD 5e has a lot of these kinds of problems (which is why there’s so many sage advice clarifications), but even in more precisely written games, the interplay between Rules as Written (RAW) and Rules as Intended (RAI) is super interesting, because we have no direct way of accessing RAI. Even when the games designers chip in with clarifications, as with Sage Advice, all that does is give us more RAW to interpret. All we can do is guess at the RAI, which sometimes means actively ignoring the RAW.
It’s also cool to see how that tension manifests from the game design angle. I have a couple of friends who have either made board games, or written TTRPG books. Whether you’re the reader or the writer, the one constant is that words are slippery and unreliable, so there will always be a gap between RAW and RAI
The problem is that the RAW implies only things considered creatures caught in the area take damage.
That would also mean Fireball only does damage to creatures, and everything else is just ignited and only if they’re flammable? Worst game ever.
Edit: Wait a minute. Player Handbook, Chapter 8
Characters can also damage objects with their weapons and spells. Objects are immune to poison and psychic damage, but otherwise they can be affected by physical and magical attacks much like creatures can.
Am I missing something here? Why isn’t Prismatic Wall affected? Are walls not objects?
DMG, page 246 mentions walls specifically:
Use common sense when determining a character’s success at damaging an object. Can a fighter cut through a section of a stone wall with a sword? No, the sword is likely to break before the wall does.
I’m going to preface this by saying I am 100% in favor of using common sense, and I have always allowed players to damage objects with spells as long as it makes sense. For example, I probably wouldn’t let a player “inflict wounds” on a locked door, but I would happily let them “thunderous smite” it.
But in the spirit of this thread, if we’re applying a rigidly narrow interpretation of the rules as written, a spell only does what its description says it does. Cone of Cold does not say it damages objects. It says it damages creatures that fail a saving throw.
Yes, Chapter 8 says “Characters can also damage objects with their weapons and spells” - and indeed they can, if they use a suitable spell such as Fire Bolt or Shatter which can damage objects according to its spell description.
Again, that’s Rules Lawyer Jesse Pinkman talking, and does not represent my own beliefs or opinions.
To be pedantic, the issue is actually caused by precise wording. The wording is so precise it limits it too much. The wording is too precise, and inaccurate.
To be very pendantic, it’s the other way around: The wording as very precise at describing both spells, but quite vague at describing their interaction. That’s what leads to the problem.
I would say that’s a lack of accuracy, not precision. If it was less precise than it’s work on more things, and be less focused on one particular thing. If it’s more accurate than it is better at describing all targets.
Precision: Is your grouping tight.
Accuracy: Are you aiming at the target.
Precision without accuracy is you very narrowly describe what it does, but you miss the desired target (the player being able to use the spell in a reasonable way).
If you can target an invisible wall, it introduces a lot of ways for things to go wrong. The spell caster is taking elements on faith and making assumptions, and those can be subverted…
I suppose you could cast see invisibility or true seeing first? But… yeah if I’m GMing you can just target the invisible wall, fuck that. Same goes for how RAW it’s nearly impossible to destroy the red layer of a prismatic wall because every spell that deals cold damage explicitly only targets creatures
Oh definitely. I assume that RAI this is the intention.
RAW/RAI?
Rules as written, rules as intended.
Thanks!
In a pedantic thread re: RAW, you misspell “definitely”. More than once. 🤌🏼
Oh gosh that’s wild. Whoops.
I thought it was funny, to be fair 🤣
I actually think it’s funny too.
I’ve never liked arbitrary spell targeting restrictions. I say if you want to fire blindly around cover or into a fog cloud you should be able to. It doesn’t come up very often and because it’s easy for players to understand that they’ll have a very high chance of missing and losing the spell slot.
Most of the time I think it’s because the spell calls for a saving throw and there isn’t a mechanic for what a wall’s Con save ought to be. That’s not a unsolvable problem by any means, but I assume that’s why the restrictions exist
But yeah, going with the flow at the table is much more fun. We can bodge a solution here. Roll it as a spellcasting attack for now
Funnily enough, Shatter actually has a very easy solution: Objects just take the damage and that’s it.
The ever-reliable bardic frag grenade
In this case, it’s a fucking wall. Just ignore the saving throw and roll for damage. It’s not going to dodge your attack or anything like that.
For blind firing, yeah. You need to do something else. Maybe roll to see if/what they hit, then the target makes the saving throw if it makes sense.
If I was doing it that way (which would be fine in my opinion) I’d want to do the same for other attacks like the fighter swinging a flametongue sword at whichever layer it is that needs fire damage. I just suggested the attack roll version because it brings it into line with other approaches
I think spells that target the spirit of a target shouldn’t be able to be fired blind - that’s what i would let it depend on. A cold ray doesn’t need a visible target, but everything mind affecting that is not AoE will need it.
I actually think it’s a fair restriction for spells that require sight. It imposes a somewhat interesting limit on casters, especially since a lot of spells still do something on a miss.
The humble cone of cold:
Oh that’s just bullshit. I’m gonna pretend I didn’t read it
consider: wall of force mimic
Invisible mimic? Who are you? Gygax?!
I don’t get it. Can you explain?
Edit (literally 10 seconds after submitting my comment): is the problem that a literal reading of this would suggest that even if more than one creature is caught in the cone, only one takes the damage?
On a tangenty note, this is one of the reasons I find board games and TTRPGs super fun: DnD 5e has a lot of these kinds of problems (which is why there’s so many sage advice clarifications), but even in more precisely written games, the interplay between Rules as Written (RAW) and Rules as Intended (RAI) is super interesting, because we have no direct way of accessing RAI. Even when the games designers chip in with clarifications, as with Sage Advice, all that does is give us more RAW to interpret. All we can do is guess at the RAI, which sometimes means actively ignoring the RAW.
It’s also cool to see how that tension manifests from the game design angle. I have a couple of friends who have either made board games, or written TTRPG books. Whether you’re the reader or the writer, the one constant is that words are slippery and unreliable, so there will always be a gap between RAW and RAI
The problem is that the RAW implies only things considered creatures caught in the area take damage.
That would also mean Fireball only does damage to creatures, and everything else is just ignited and only if they’re flammable? Worst game ever.
Edit: Wait a minute. Player Handbook, Chapter 8
Am I missing something here? Why isn’t Prismatic Wall affected? Are walls not objects?
DMG, page 246 mentions walls specifically:
Common sense, my worst nemesis 😔
I’m going to preface this by saying I am 100% in favor of using common sense, and I have always allowed players to damage objects with spells as long as it makes sense. For example, I probably wouldn’t let a player “inflict wounds” on a locked door, but I would happily let them “thunderous smite” it.
But in the spirit of this thread, if we’re applying a rigidly narrow interpretation of the rules as written, a spell only does what its description says it does. Cone of Cold does not say it damages objects. It says it damages creatures that fail a saving throw.
Yes, Chapter 8 says “Characters can also damage objects with their weapons and spells” - and indeed they can, if they use a suitable spell such as Fire Bolt or Shatter which can damage objects according to its spell description.
Again, that’s Rules Lawyer Jesse Pinkman talking, and does not represent my own beliefs or opinions.
Who would win, Gravity Fissure vs small porcelain vase
Yeah I thought of that one as well. It’s one of those weird cases of imprecise wording.
To be pedantic, the issue is actually caused by precise wording. The wording is so precise it limits it too much. The wording is too precise, and inaccurate.
To be very pendantic, it’s the other way around: The wording as very precise at describing both spells, but quite vague at describing their interaction. That’s what leads to the problem.
I would say that’s a lack of accuracy, not precision. If it was less precise than it’s work on more things, and be less focused on one particular thing. If it’s more accurate than it is better at describing all targets.
Precision: Is your grouping tight.
Accuracy: Are you aiming at the target.
Precision without accuracy is you very narrowly describe what it does, but you miss the desired target (the player being able to use the spell in a reasonable way).
Fair.
Tired of pesky adventurers always seeing your tricks? Try applying Invisible metamagic to conjured Fog today!
If you can target an invisible wall, it introduces a lot of ways for things to go wrong. The spell caster is taking elements on faith and making assumptions, and those can be subverted…