I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I’m pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn’t like “girly” things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don’t want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we’re doing, having goofy staring contests… whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there’s not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn’t mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I’m going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I’m going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. “If you show your emotions to a woman she’ll use them against you later” or “If you cry in front of a girl she’ll break up with you” or “Guys who are too feminine give me the ick”. Often some variation of “If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you’re fucked.”
That’s why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn’t fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow “fallen out” of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn’t want to be “manly,” I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I’m interested in hearing others’ experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn’t an “incel” subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn’t patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don’t have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
People are just people. Nobody is going around “gender rolling” in real life except to make tinder profiles and Tik toks.
Go live it and forget about the caricatures you’re reading about. Being effeminate or whatever is not a big deal, being extremely insecure and self sabotaging will be a potentially much bigger issue because it will stop you being you.
- a manly dude I guess
I’m a straight man who also thinks gender roles are gross. I like sweet and dominant women and I long ago decided i’m done trying to please people I fucking despise. Be yourself and you’ll find the right woman. Your vibe attracts your tribe.
I like sweet and dominant women
Have you found some? I probably shouldn’t put too much stock into anecdotes from Internet strangers (that’s part of what got me into this situation in the first place), but I think it would be encouraging to hear if you did!
Honestly, no. I haven’t really tried though to be fair. I don’t have the means to at this time. I don’t think you need strangers on the internet to tell you you need to be yourself though. What’s the alternative? Pretend to be someone you aren’t and end up in a situation you hate where you aren’t happy? I can tell you I did the latter and I was way worse off.
What’s the alternative? Pretend to be someone you aren’t and end up in a situation you hate where you aren’t happy?
I used to think that I had to, because I was afraid that nobody would accept me for who I was. It seems like the beliefs in my post are a last-ditch effort by my fear to hold me back (“You can’t be yourself because everyone will despise you (which also means that nobody can be attracted to you) and a small subset of people will react violently while bystanders watch.”)
My worldview over the past decade, the one that I’m actively trying to dismantle, has been that, despite having the right to free expression on paper (in the U.S.), we unfortunately live in an intolerant authoritarian culture that stifles that free expression through social shaming. Deviations from traditional masculinity, I believed, would lead to one being universally shunned in everyday settings, and may lead to severe social consequences. As you can imagine, it’s hard to change a belief if you’re too scared to challenge it (going outside, talking to people), which is why it stood for as long as it did. But now I understand that I have to challenge it because the downstream consequences are literally ruining my life.
Basically, I grew up in a right-wing echo chamber, so my brain learned to expect everyone to be intolerant of deviations from stereotypes.
If it makes you feel better, i’m a cis man who likes painting his nails and wearing skirts. I know how you must feel. I know it won’t be nearly as scary when you’re with someone who is supportive of you.
Funnily enough, in my case, I couldn’t hide my “deviant” traits because they’re written all over my demeanor. Nobody has ever seen or treated me as a manly man. Not one. My gentleness is obvious no matter how much I try to suppress myself. That means that every friend or acquaintance I have ever had liked (or at the very least tolerated) something about me that I thought would be universally shunned. Theory debunked. I just ignored the evidence.
Is deviant the right word? Also, why would you want to be treated like a manly man? I respect people who are their authentic self whether that be feminine, masculine or something else. In my case, I’m a very strange person and it seems people either love me or hate me. In any case, if we’re to be damned, let us be damned for who we are. We’re all gonna die anyway.
I don’t know what you’re like in person, but let’s say for a moment you’re straight, but aggressively effeminate. It’s a niche thing, but there’s somebody out there looking for that, just like there’s dudes that are into the butch aesthetic. Human sexuality (and romance, and so on) is insanely varied.
If you’re in an information ecosystem where you’re hearing things like “If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you’re fucked”, some degree of grass touching does need to happen. That’s a dude preying on people’s insecurities for his influencer brand or whatever. Find a happy older couple, ask yourself if that quote is what you see going on.
All three of your possibilities happen to some degree. Some people have shitty relationships and don’t know why, some people fake their way through, but also, some people don’t.
I don’t normally recognize specific users online except for a handful of novelty accounts. For all I know, I’ve only ever talked to 3 people on Lemmy. I don’t generally look at usernames, and certainly don’t remember them.
So, my dude, I think it says something that I recognize you. I hit about the 1st sentence of your second paragraph and went “is this that guy again?” And sure enough, you were.
I’m not saying this to belittle you in any way, please go on being your sensitive, submissive, gender-nonconforming self. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
But you’re on here every couple of weeks posting along these same lines, so I can tell that this is really eating at you at a pretty deep level, and while I don’t know what the best solution for you is, it might be professional help, it might be as simple as getting out more, it might be anything in-between, I’m pretty confident that just posting about it on here is probably not going to find you the solutions your seeking.
It has actually helped me a lot, but only because the people here helped me to build enough confidence to talk to real life people about this and realize that I had fooled myself.
I used to think it was literally too dangerous for me to go outside because I didn’t fit a world of hyperpolarized gender norms, which I convinced myself was how reality was. I used labels like “submissive” or “GNC” to mean “likes confident women” and “isn’t a macho alpha male” respectively, not knowing that these were common characteristics that didn’t need special labels. In that stage, the questions I asked were me trying to poke holes in my theory and see if there were exceptions to the hyperpolarized rule I imagined.
As my language became more accurate and I talked to online friends about my feelings, they kept saying that I was completely normal and not weird at all. That gave me the courage to come out about my feelings IRL to some of my conservative family members, and even they said I was normal. The more I probed real people, the more I realized that I had been catastrophically wrong this whole time, and this fascination with gender norms made no sense.
I asked this question to see if there was any shred of legitimacy left in the way I used to think, and I think it’s safe to say that it has been fully discredited at this point. I only thought that way because some assholes in the past convinced me I was unlovable and I developed an elaborate pseudoscience to explain why. Maybe I should have just listened to the nice people who told me to my face how much they love my soft side.
I feel like I’m ready to go outside and make some friends now. And see a therapist if I still find myself struggling. The Internet has served its purpose for me, and I will not miss this era of my life.
Questions like these are hard to determine an answer for because there’s a wide array of subjectiveness and objectiveness from person to person. Social Media has only complicated that.
I’d check your algorithm here honestly. On the female side I get men who are ONLY interested in that type of dynamic and don’t know how to wipe their ass—I know it isn’t accurate, but the internet insists I see it sometimes. I’m older and I can confirm most of us just want equal partnerships and independent adults. That said, in your early twenties you will encounter a fair amount of emotionally immature individuals. And people who have been groomed by their families and algorithms into gender roles as well. It isn’t hopeless, but it is getting more difficult.
Honestly, judging by the responses here, it really seems like my social anxiety selectively absorbed negative information and created a self-defeating worldview based on inflammatory social media posts. I really need to take a hard look at what I’m consuming and ask myself if it’s really worth it.
It’s embarrassing to be this wrong, but I’m grateful that I have this community to help me understand that this is a self-imposed social dysfunction rather than a legitimate worldview. It’s just fear.
At least you’ve been embarrassingly wrong in a case where consequences are minimal. Also, you’ve taken in this information to make changes to your life in a mature way.
Also, you’ve taken in this information to make changes to your life in a mature way.
This is the biggest thing. So many times I’ve seen someone post the most batshit crazy ideas you can imagine, and walk away thinking “These thousands of people who say otherwise obviously don’t know what they’re talking about.”
Just by realizing this and making this comment honestly says a lot about you. A lot of good, that is. I’m rooting for you, OP, and I hope you eventually find a healthy relationship. :)
At the risk of sounding like a boomer - as long as you let algorithms decide what your expectations of both yourself and any potential partner are, you are hamstringing yourself. All people are more than a set of preconceived roles that a bunch of influencers decided were relevant.
You need to date. By which I mean go outside where people are, socialise, find people you like for multiple reasons (so not just perceived attractiveness, not just wage, not just the role you think they might have) and ask them out. The worst that can happen is they say ‘no thanks’. And if it takes 20 times before someone says ‘yeah OK’ then so be it. Its not a competition and no one is keeping score. Dating someone is literally the only way to get to know them beyond your own assumptions.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned about people in general, it’s that no one is particularly interesting*. By that, I mean whenever someone asks “am I the only one who …” or they think they’re the only one who thinks a certain way, they are always, without fail, wrong. You don’t want to be the manly man, there are many like you and many women who prefer that.
What we all see on social media isn’t reality. Some of it are just memes, some of it’s just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women get the ick if you have emotions. Even Instagram, where this is particularly bad, claims to have 3 billion active monthly users. Even if by some miracle each of these users were different real human beings, that’s still shy of half of the population in the best case scenario. In reality, even with Instagram, MOST people in the world don’t use it, so what you see there isn’t representative of society. Nevermind that the almighty algorithm and the “culture” there attracts a certain type of person.
Honestly, the fact that there isn’t an “incel” subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn’t patriarchal enough makes me wonder …
There are.
In any case, if you want my opinion, women are people just like you. The same way you came to your conclusions and preferences, they have too. You want an equal relationship and some women will as well. Are there people like you described? Of course, but that doesn’t mean anything more than that you two are incompatible. So if you meet one in your efforts to find a relationship, that’s ok, just move on.
*many people are very interesting, I’m just making a point
some of it’s just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women …
And reasonable people make maybe 1-2 posts/memes about their normal relationship while incels will make hundreds. So it looks like the extreme position is way more common than it is. If your personality is centered around wanting a tradwive woman who bows down to you you will be much more vocal about it.
To OP: you are fine, most (younger than 50, and many older as well) people think like you. Its just that right wing propaganda is effective and gaining popularity.
You absolutely have to get the fuck off the internet to get an idea of what people are actually like. Most of the shit you’re seeing isn’t even written by humans anymore, and even what is real tends to be the craziest 1% of the population, because they say the crazy things that drive engagement and feed the algorithm.
There’s no one way people are, there is more diversity and variety around you than you can possibly imagine. It’s not necessarily easy to find somebody you’re going to gel with, but I promise you they are all over the place.
Your assumption that all women are looking for a relationship that aligns with traditional gender roles is antithetical to your view of women as equals. I’m not trying to be inflammatory, I’m just nudging you towards the conclusion that people that talk about traditional expectations in a relationship don’t really speak for everyone. It also seems like a lot of your evidence comes from male voices, which I don’t think is an accurate reflection of what women want in a relationship. It sounds to me like these are the conclusions of the circles that you hang around in (or the culture that you live in/grew up in) rather than a fact of life. Most of the women I know are either in the types of relationships you are describing or vocally advocate for finding that type of relationship. There are both women and men that haven’t evaluated the impact of patriarchal male expectations, and so there are both men and women out there that knowingly and unknowingly perpetuate the stereotype of men as unfeeling and uncaring. But to say that all men and all women think this way is probably inaccurate.
It sounds like you know what you want in a relationship and what activities make you happy regardless of whether they traditionally fit with a certain traditional gender expression, so do those things. I know it’s demoralising to feel like the odd one out, but even if you live in a particularly conservative country there will always be like-minded people /somewhere/ out there.
Here’s my advice as someone who basically could have written this post when I was your age (I’m now 30)
You can absolutely find a partner who wants to be free from gender expectations and find a relationship like you describe (I did!), but it will be extremely hard to find if you don’t put yourself out there and get used to sorting through the majority who are satisfied with gender roles.
The most important things imo are to 1. Keep putting yourself out there when you have the energy. 2. Take breaks if you have to, don’t let the experience make you jaded or let that frustration affect how you treat others because that’s an easy way to repel someone who would otherwise be a great match. 3. Keep being yourself, don’t be afraid to showcase the ways in which you are not traditionally masculine. I literally put a picture of myself in a maid outfit on tinder and I get quite a few compliments. You’ll only repel the people you don’t want and it’ll be like a beacon to attract those who view gender roles in the same way that you do.
To your last point, I would guess a lot of guys probably live quietly unhappy. But plenty have found accepting partners and social circles who are open minded about identity and gender expression.
I have often said that for me successful dating is not about getting to date lots of people, but about quickly filtering out the people who don’t work for me and filtering the people who do.
For OP, a lot of pan/bi sexual people already reject strict gender roles, and may be more open to a relationship like you’re seeking.
actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, despite popular narratives.
This might come as a shock to you, but women have been complaining that men pigeonhole themselves into gender roles for decades, and many, if not most of them, would love a guy who is sweeter, not afraid to show their emotions, and is caring and intimate.
Sadly tho, there quite a few are examples of men doing just that and shortly after being broken up with
Sure, and those are the examples we talk about because it’s interesting or frustrating. When a husband opens up about their feelings and their wife accepts that and supports them, it doesn’t end up on social media.
What ends up on social media is the man finishing his 20 or 30 year old coil of wire, coming to realize how times flowing and his mortality, and having his wife mock him and then post it online for others to do the same.
Abandon the concept of gender on humans. We’re too complex to fit in little boxes that make small minds feel safe.
actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
This was my experience. I don’t think I’ve ever dated a woman who wanted extremely traditional gender roles. As far as I could tell they mostly wanted equal partnerships like you are describing. And after 12 years of marriage I can tell you my wife and I definitely don’t fall into stereotypical roles.
I did date one woman for a year and a half who had some traditional tendencies, but only some. She did not want a breadwinner to support her and did not mind men showing emotion. On the other hand, she definitely subscribed it to the idea that men are dumb pigs who need to be managed by their wives, and she seemed to think it was normal for a marriage to be a constant low-grade “battle of the sexes” — she kept telling me these stories about her parents’ conflicts that she thought were cute but I thought were kind of horrifying. I broke up with her for a few reasons but that was definitely one of them. But my point is everyone is an individual and she had some traditional tendencies and some not traditional tendencies. Also I got to know her and had fun dating and then eventually broke up because I didn’t think we were a good match. It was fine, and I learned a lot about myself along the way.
Now, if you’re on your guard all the time worrying that a woman wants traditional gender roles I bet you can find reasons to support that hypothesis. So don’t go looking for it. Instead, go on some dates and just get to know the other person as a person.
Those people who tell you all women want a certain thing are wrong. They might be coming from a particular subculture where it’s true, and if you are constantly meeting women who only want traditional gender roles then maybe you need to look at who you’re asking out and how you are meeting them. Some of the people who are telling you these stories are knowingly lying because saying “everything sucks and you can pay me for a solution” is a very profitable venture. Other people wish traditional gender roles were the norm and so they’re sort of LARPing it online.
Also, remember that going on a couple of dates is not a lifelong commitment. You’re getting to know each other. Have fun with it. If you don’t like her once you get to know her better, move on. The more you go on dates the easier it gets. Go touch some grass and go touch some ass (consensually).
I the fruity one, find there are more women i talk to that like me more than not. Im not plenty of womens cup of tea im sure, but im not interested in plenty of women too.
Lomg and short of it, yeah we’re out here doing fine. Gender is part of a performative identity so wr are goinh to see shows all the time, people, like myself, tend to value other identity expression and so you probally wont see us performing counter gender as much (id rather talk about Linux, Rancher, FOSS, homesteading, economics, etc instead of dwelling a lot of normative gender dynamics that dont explain me and my partner(s) well.
