Ethereum was able to cut their energy usage down drastically by moving away of PoW. Windmills and clean energy aren’t the solution, getting rid of PoW is. Why build more solar farms if you could just not use so much electricity?
You aren’t computing the cost in blood, censorship, wasted time, the lives employed by these evil orgs wasting their lives scamming people, the loss of revenue from value-producing business, the waste of banking cards, and the COUNTLESS other energy-guzzling mechanisms involved.
Bitcoin eliminates ALL these problems. It is by far more efficient, it isn’t even close. Also, it isn’t a payment system like visa, what an ignorant ass comparison. It is literally a sovereign currency with publicly auditable minting & ledgers. It replaces MONEY. Payment processors are built on top of it.
Yea, even the shit visa and mastercard can switch to payment processing on top of Bitcoin. It would actually be beneficial. When they decline a transaction you just directly use the network instead.
Btw PoS is also bullshit, in a completely different and inferior class of crypto. It requires HUMAN CONSENT to enter the network. PoW requires COMPUTATIONAL CONSENT. PoW lets anyone into the network if they can follow the rules of minting. This is HUGE when talking about a freedom-preserving system.
Put more simply, PoS systems are aristocracy owning an apple orchard (you ask an authority if they are allowed to take an apple), PoW is like an apple orchard deep in the woods that anyone can take from (you just have to walk there). Understand the difference?
One OWNS THE ORCHARD. They will protect it from people they deem unauthorized. They demand people go through them for permission. It is no different than what we have now, abstracted further and digitized.
Proof of Stake = I have a stake in preserving this network, and I am rewarded by receiving an increased stake in the network.
You cannot organically enter a PoS network without having a stake in it. That requires acquiring the network’s token somehow. That means you must use a different token to purchase it, do work for someone who will pay you in it, or otherwise perform an operation organized by people in order to acquire the token to have a stake.
Your point is valid for new, immature blockchains. Censorship/access restrictions are possible and it’s very easy for PoS to turn into nothing at stake.
In practice mature PoS chains don’t require any human consent.
If you want to take a “purest” approach then bitcoin has similar problems. To gain any chance of mining BTC you have to buy specialised equipment from someone.
I would also put joining a mining collective in a similar “human consent” category
You can study the universe and come up with a way to do PoW more efficiently. PoW requires knowledge to enter. With more knowledge and mastery, you are rewarded more.
The specialist equipment can be built by anyone at any time. Any country, any place. If your country blocks it? You can use specialist knowledge to circumvent them. You can also still use a computer to mine, though you will never mine a block now days, there is still a chance.
All of this is a very, very important feature that almost everyone overlooks now days. It is essential that it be this way. Anyone should be able to enter the network assuming they have the knowledge to do so.
The specialist equipment can be built by anyone at any time.
No no. This is a highly specialised industry dominated by Bitmain. Unless you are using the latest hardware you are vastly overspending on mining costs.
You can also still use a computer to mine, though you will never mine a block now days, there is still a chance.
There is almost zero chance. The only practical to get BTC using a normal computer is to buy it from someone else.
Anyone should be able to enter the network assuming they have the knowledge to do so.
Anyone can verify the network, but a there is no opportunity to obtain BTC without interacting with a (harware) gatekeeper.
I think I haven’t explained myself properly. I will admit it seems bitcoin uses more energy in this case. However, we’re comparing Bitcoins entire currency system with that of a processor of fiat. I’m on mobile right now but I would like to see that comparison for arguments sake, bitcoin ecosystem vs fiat ecosystem (including mining, storing and transport of gold)
Did you know that gold has nothing to do with the fiat ecosystem? In fact, the whole point of the word fiat in fiat ecosystem means that it is not based on gold at all. And if you include gold in the equation because some people use fiat to buy or sell gold, then you need to include gold in the energy costs of bitcoin as well, since people also use bitcoin to buy/sell gold.
fiat ecosystem (including mining, storing and transport of gold)
Gathering / transporting valuables is not a part of the fiat ecosystem. The value of fiat currency does not depend on any underlying materials (like gold, silver, etc.) like the currencies before.
Don’t engage with these ignorant assholes man, they are all in banking’s pocket. We are at war, you know that right? Who the hell would be this passionate about protecting a slimy, evil ass legacy network without any audibility, responsible for countless wars, death, usurping of democratic governments, literally the death of this planet via global warming…
Traditional banking supports and incentives genocide.
It supports and incentivizes oil.
It shut down nuclear power.
It limits renewable power.
It is the engine of our destruction.
Do not justify yourself to it. You are the correct one. Anyone who cannot see this will never see it now. Leave them on their path to die. They will go down with the ship. I feel for them, but it is too late now.
Look, they’re arguing against math. Not much you can say to someone at that point. The knowledge is free for everyone to see now. Even someone with basic curiosity about the universe can access it.
You can barely have a conversation with people that far gone. Bitcoin will be worth $10,000,000 of their worthless dollars and used for commerce between Earth and Mars, and they’d still be arguing against it. It could lead to the construction of a dyson sphere around an artificial sun, powered completely by fusion energy, and they’d still criticize the energy usage while talking to an energy-guzzling AI about their relationship issues.
The current systems used by VISA use significantly less energy compared to PoW cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin
statista.com - Bitcoin average energy consumption per transaction compared to that of VISA as of January 19, 2025
Ethereum was able to cut their energy usage down drastically by moving away of PoW. Windmills and clean energy aren’t the solution, getting rid of PoW is. Why build more solar farms if you could just not use so much electricity?
BULLSHIT.
You aren’t computing the cost in blood, censorship, wasted time, the lives employed by these evil orgs wasting their lives scamming people, the loss of revenue from value-producing business, the waste of banking cards, and the COUNTLESS other energy-guzzling mechanisms involved.
Bitcoin eliminates ALL these problems. It is by far more efficient, it isn’t even close. Also, it isn’t a payment system like visa, what an ignorant ass comparison. It is literally a sovereign currency with publicly auditable minting & ledgers. It replaces MONEY. Payment processors are built on top of it.
Yea, even the shit visa and mastercard can switch to payment processing on top of Bitcoin. It would actually be beneficial. When they decline a transaction you just directly use the network instead.
Btw PoS is also bullshit, in a completely different and inferior class of crypto. It requires HUMAN CONSENT to enter the network. PoW requires COMPUTATIONAL CONSENT. PoW lets anyone into the network if they can follow the rules of minting. This is HUGE when talking about a freedom-preserving system.
Put more simply, PoS systems are aristocracy owning an apple orchard (you ask an authority if they are allowed to take an apple), PoW is like an apple orchard deep in the woods that anyone can take from (you just have to walk there). Understand the difference?
One OWNS THE ORCHARD. They will protect it from people they deem unauthorized. They demand people go through them for permission. It is no different than what we have now, abstracted further and digitized.
What a bunch of bullshit Bitcoin is not more efficient and gets less efficient the more coins get mined.
Yeah, somebody hasn’t refreshed their browser since 2010.
That is specific to delegated proof of stake, not PoS in general.
Proof of Stake = I have a stake in preserving this network, and I am rewarded by receiving an increased stake in the network.
You cannot organically enter a PoS network without having a stake in it. That requires acquiring the network’s token somehow. That means you must use a different token to purchase it, do work for someone who will pay you in it, or otherwise perform an operation organized by people in order to acquire the token to have a stake.
That’s what I mean by human consent.
Your point is valid for new, immature blockchains. Censorship/access restrictions are possible and it’s very easy for PoS to turn into nothing at stake.
In practice mature PoS chains don’t require any human consent.
Yes, they do.
In order to acquire the token, where does it come from in PoS?
You want to mint the token? It requires the token.
You want to buy the token? It requires someone that already has the token to sell it.
You want to trade the token? You need to find someone that has the token and wishes to perform that trade.
It requires acquiring a counterparty that consents to you acquiring a stake no matter how “mature” a PoS chain is.
If you want to take a “purest” approach then bitcoin has similar problems. To gain any chance of mining BTC you have to buy specialised equipment from someone.
I would also put joining a mining collective in a similar “human consent” category
No.
You can study the universe and come up with a way to do PoW more efficiently. PoW requires knowledge to enter. With more knowledge and mastery, you are rewarded more.
The specialist equipment can be built by anyone at any time. Any country, any place. If your country blocks it? You can use specialist knowledge to circumvent them. You can also still use a computer to mine, though you will never mine a block now days, there is still a chance.
All of this is a very, very important feature that almost everyone overlooks now days. It is essential that it be this way. Anyone should be able to enter the network assuming they have the knowledge to do so.
No no. This is a highly specialised industry dominated by Bitmain. Unless you are using the latest hardware you are vastly overspending on mining costs.
There is almost zero chance. The only practical to get BTC using a normal computer is to buy it from someone else.
Anyone can verify the network, but a there is no opportunity to obtain BTC without interacting with a (harware) gatekeeper.
I think I haven’t explained myself properly. I will admit it seems bitcoin uses more energy in this case. However, we’re comparing Bitcoins entire currency system with that of a processor of fiat. I’m on mobile right now but I would like to see that comparison for arguments sake, bitcoin ecosystem vs fiat ecosystem (including mining, storing and transport of gold)
Ah, moving the goal posts, aren’t we?
Did you know that gold has nothing to do with the fiat ecosystem? In fact, the whole point of the word fiat in fiat ecosystem means that it is not based on gold at all. And if you include gold in the equation because some people use fiat to buy or sell gold, then you need to include gold in the energy costs of bitcoin as well, since people also use bitcoin to buy/sell gold.
They’re not moving the goalposts.
Gathering / transporting valuables is not a part of the fiat ecosystem. The value of fiat currency does not depend on any underlying materials (like gold, silver, etc.) like the currencies before.
So does the fiat system then get added to Bitcoin? Since it’s only value is it can be exchanged for fiat currency.
BTC can be used like fiat so no?
Don’t engage with these ignorant assholes man, they are all in banking’s pocket. We are at war, you know that right? Who the hell would be this passionate about protecting a slimy, evil ass legacy network without any audibility, responsible for countless wars, death, usurping of democratic governments, literally the death of this planet via global warming…
Traditional banking supports and incentives genocide.
It supports and incentivizes oil.
It shut down nuclear power.
It limits renewable power.
It is the engine of our destruction.
Do not justify yourself to it. You are the correct one. Anyone who cannot see this will never see it now. Leave them on their path to die. They will go down with the ship. I feel for them, but it is too late now.
The fastest way to render your point invalid.
Shit you got me, you ruined our perfect psyop!
Oof yeah I looked back and noticed I’m arguing on memes😵💫 it’s amazing we’re on the fediverse but they can’t see the parallels
Yup.
Look, they’re arguing against math. Not much you can say to someone at that point. The knowledge is free for everyone to see now. Even someone with basic curiosity about the universe can access it.
You can barely have a conversation with people that far gone. Bitcoin will be worth $10,000,000 of their worthless dollars and used for commerce between Earth and Mars, and they’d still be arguing against it. It could lead to the construction of a dyson sphere around an artificial sun, powered completely by fusion energy, and they’d still criticize the energy usage while talking to an energy-guzzling AI about their relationship issues.
They’re gone my friend.