You are right, I was trying to say that I think democracy in the western way would not work in the current institutional situation, not that would not work at all. I phrased it badly.

I guess my disagreement is that Western countries are in no position to give these tools

But my first comment was actually criticizing westerns that think they know better how any development country should work.

We didn´t disagree, ppl is being demobilized by the destruction of public debate spaces like unions, this happened, and still happens in some places, with countries in development by force and now is happening in developed countries by propaganda. I feel you think I’m talking about some kind of professoral propaganda like another brick in the wall when I talk about education, but I’m actually talking about Paulo Freire kind of education. I wasn’t in any point trying to say that ppl should be teached about democracy and how they should vote but that they should been given the tools to create their own debates and their own way to experience democracy.

This exactly what happened in Brazil, the argument was that a militar junta influenced by the catholic church was more democratic than a social democratic president not aligned with US. And this was actually an argument.

Education in this case is not about formal education, but understanding how politics work and what are the alternatives. I know ppl that never pass the fourth grade that are decent political/local leaders and middle class ppl with PHD supporting fascism.

This is very similar what we had in Brazil, but the argument was that supporting a “temporary” military junta was “more democratic” than a social Democratic government cause they were communists.

I dont know how my point disagrees with yours

I agree with you entirely, what I was trying to say is something like you said

However, I will agree that we are suffering the worst of it because lack of civil rights and weak civil institutions.

What I was trying to say in a dumber way, you have to create an “ecosystem” for democracy and just elections are not enough. Idk what is the best path for Pakistan, but countries like that usually need a complex institution overhaul and educate the population to function as a decent democracy, and sometimes just trying to force this European view of democracy can introduce even more chaos, like in Libya

And then Europeans come and say we need more “democracy”, how democracy could work in countries like that? You will always descent to things like Modi in India without educating ppl properly.

Yeah, its like a Bing without providing any information besides your search

This happens, there is a lot of liberal left that believes that representation and words can shape the reality. But there is a lot of bad will from OP to generalize it

You have a great point, but for me it is still too much conjectures, but looking to theses conjectures I still disagree. Moving to another country would destroy those teams, cause they aren´t just the teams, Liverpool actually is a global brand but it is the Liverpool that plays in the premier league and have their rivalries, leaving UK would mean leaving all these parts of the brand behind. It is also a very different scenario, those teams in US move to other cities in the same country and still compete in the same tournament keeping a lot more of their previous brand.

For me your example would be much closer to MLB, NBA, NFL and MLS if you thought about Liverpool goint to Bristol, for example. In this scenario I can see better your point but I still think that the club would lose a lot of their capital and the brand would suffer with the ridicule of the situation for the average football fan. But it is just another opinion based in my previous opinions.

As a non north-american I never understood this franchise system. How could you cheer for a team that will move anytime to a city more profitable? In Europe and latin america, if your city sucks, is becoming poor or so, the team will fall to the second division and will deal with that cause they are from that city, cause they are a club, not a franchise. For me this makes much more sense.

There’s no way they see it as a threat.

So why they are expending dev time to partially integrate with activepub? What they earn? Cause this would not make them a dime, not in short term, and even less in long term.

Ahmm, lemmy.world is already federated with mastodon as well, fediverse is one network of federated instances, it is not one for mastodon and another for lemmy. You can interact with mastodon post already from here

As Brazilian I can understand a good portion of Spanish (I had little contact too) but french and Portuguese from Ilha da Madeira I can’t understand shit.

“democratically elected” leaders bribed by the PRC with its slave labour money.

Dude, you are just ignoring reality, you are accusing Chinese government of doing exactly what McCarthyism did all around the world, why were someone disagrees with Europe and US politics and align it is automatically “leaders bribed by the PRC”? Why in your mind third world countries can’t have an strong opinion? Why they can’t try even be socialist?

most of its citizens and officials have at least given up on imperialistic and national chauvinistic thinking and ideology

Where are you living my dude? France is just refusing to accept the new Niger government and trying everything to support their deposed ally. The entire western world is public denying Palestinians right to defend themselves and sometimes comparing Arabs as animals. Cuba embargo it is still a thing after 51 years after the missile crisis. Iraq invasion is 2003 Libya was put in a bloody civil war for groups backed by Obama government, creating the biggest migratory issue since the Jews with Nazism. In 2013, leaked documents PROVED that US spied several governments, including countries like Brazil. The judge that tried to imprison Lula had close ties with FBI. Elon Musk publicly expressed support of the Bolivian failed coup, nothing related to the fact that Bolivia has on of the biggest Lithium reserves.

I would like to point out that I fully recognise the West’s illegitimate and unethical interference in the second and third world in the past and present.

No you don´t, you explicit said above you don’t.

But two wrongs do not make a right

I totally agree here but you should make accusations based in reality, not based on some idealization you have about the countries. The way you put is like China is a bloody dictatorship that colonizes ppl, and on the west we have beautiful democracies and help his friends to grow flowers. And pls, I beg you to not come with the “at least we can complain publicly” cause ppl starving are not heard anyway, ppl incarcerated in US are not heard, the mothers and childrens separated in the US border are not heard, the ppl leaving leaving wars in Libya and Siria, created by western backed groups are not heard, ppl with jobs living in the streets cause they cannot pay rent are not heard.

Reducing a complex country like China as a “dictatorship” is just creating an idealized view of the world to criticize someone that we don’t know, to criticize a nation like they were incapable of self determination. You can disagree with everything but it is still a country that raised the life expectancy from 43 in 1950 to 2 years close to US in 2023. And exactly because this I disagree completely when you see western has abandoned chauvinism, cause I see this meme and your comment as chauvinist as fuck. Ppl here acting like Hong Kong was a Paradise before the handover to China, the issue with Hong Kong democracy dates from (oh the irony, the domain of the state by UK) before 97, where only around 40%-50% of the population was allowed to vote, and this remains until today.

Russia, Iran, North Korea and all the other current autocratic fuckers in the world

This is just a moral argument, US and Europe have great relationships with Saudi Arabia, a country that allegedly killed an journalist in foreign territory. And I ask you what would they do? Ally with US that have a think tanks like VOC, specialized in creating fake news about china? You also forgot, the entire South-America, Africa and Oceania are very close to China. Seems just like another country doing things that benefits them, exactly like everyone.

are not constantly trying to violently revise the legal international order

There is 750 US military bases in 80 countries in the world. US literally invaded 2 countries in the past 20 years and financed at least 3 coup attempts recently.

Tibet

You said you were not looking into the past but are getting Tibet from 1951 as an example. Lets talk about what US made to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia?

Again, you say you “recognize” but you don´t. You seems to say this only to keep your moral superiority, you chose to ignore what western did and KEEPS doing, just to reinforce your idealized version of the world. And I’m not even discussing that most of the western countries aren’t even functional democracies. I don’t think you do this on purpose, don´t take this as a personal attack, it’s not my intention. But from a third world born, your take seems like an adolescent discussing geopolitics in the school. The world is not an Ideal place and all countries are fighting each other, military or not, and China is no exception, and the ideal world you seems to believe does not exists.

These weapons would not sell themselves.
Also, is not France a closer ally of US?

Luckily us that US, and UK have a history of respecting everyone’s territory lol.

I cant understand how someone can see China as a threat but not US, UK or France, the 3 biggest colonial states right now (only if you are north-american, then I can understand).

Countries from South America and Africa are right now receiving technology from China, what was constantly denied by Europe and US to keep us as modern colonies, maybe this is why ppl from rich countries are so afraid of Communism

Two areas then.