When I was fairly younger, I was in a relationship with a woman who told me that if she were to learn that I had sex with a man, especially bottoming but also topping (she didn’t use those terms, she used bad terms), then she would feel disgusted and betrayed and would never feel attracted to me again or see me as a man again.
I said to her that I was disappointed in her, that she had internalised homophobia and that she was a massive hypocrite. Her self proclaimed best male friend presented to the world as flamingly gay, and she was openly bi herself, not as in “I would totally fuck women cause I like the idea of it”, bus as in she had fucked women before and would do it again. Apparently she deserves to be fucked by a real man, which apparently bi men are not.
So…yeah, you can be a loudly proclaimed ally AND a member of the LGBTQ community yourself, and still be a disgusting homophobe right alongside the best of bigots.
I have a similar story to share.
When I was in my early 20s I briefly dated a girl who told me she was having feelings for another woman and was being curious, she eventually broke up with me in order to be with her, but we remained good friends after that.
Eventually she came out as a lesbian and when I told her that I was bi she immediately ended our friendship all even yelled some slurs at me.
AFAIK she’s married with a guy and has kids now
Wow, that’s some intense double standards there.
Eventually she came out as a lesbian and when I told her that I was bi she immediately ended our friendship
Can’t really imagine it. Even stubborn homophobes do not end friendship over someone coming out. A lot of them just become curious and eventually accepting. Am not LGBTQ+ though, so my judgement is kinda not reliable, but still.
The woman you’re talking about is exceptionally weird and she can go fuck herself
It’s adorable that you think “stubborn homophobes” wouldn’t end a friendship over someone coming out. I genuinely wish they did just become curious and eventually accepting, instead of immediately rejecting and intimidating and expressing feelings of disgust and revulsion.
In my 20s I was this homophobe until a friend came up to me. Maybe it’s my projection, idk
Yeah no i think you just valued that friendship, or your homophobia wasn’t as deep as many’s.
Your experience is valid, as it happened to you and none of us in this thread were there probably anyway.
In my experience, friends don’t end friendships over homophobia. They just suddenly become very busy and they have less and less time to spend with the person who comes out as bi.
‘Bi erasure’ is such a common phenomenon that we invented the term ‘bi erasure’.
Maybe calling women lesbians instead of gay allows people to be homophobic while accepting lesbians. After all, the word was invented by men who thought women couldn’t be gay the way men can.
I’m curious what the people’s opinions are who downvoted you. Do they disagree or are they just angry? If they disagree they should have left a comment explaining why, so I’m assuming they’re irrationally upset and voicing their opinion would make them look bad maybe?
Initial reaction: there’s no way that’s real
After reading the comments: what the fuck
Very strange you haven’t absorbed this concept yet. “Bi women are straight but bi men are gay” is one of the most common tropes in the larger culture’s conception of sexual identity.
I don’t mean to brag, but I have an astonishing lack of culture.
bisexual women are hot
bisexual men are gross.
that’s the underlying assumption.
homosexuality is considered positive/attractive among women, and normalized. a woman doesn’t become less woman for being with a woman.
however, works the opposite for a guy. homosexuality makes a man less manly, or something.
Imagine being a dude and caring if people thought you were manly or not.
imagine being a dude and other people incessantly police your sexuality/masculinity and make comments on it almost everyday of your life.
I am shocked too wtf. I feel bad for men who went through that BS.
It makes me bifurious
I chuckled under my breath
I exhaled a little more air than usual through my nose
Fucking a twink is the manliness thing a man can do and if anyone wants to disagree with that I’ll fuck you too and I’m straight as fuck.
Twinks are feminine, so fucking a twink is also feminine and that’s gay. The manliest thing you can do is fuck the manliest guy you can find.
Coincidentally, that is also what you should do on your first day in prison. Or so they told me, I dunno
EDIT: Wait… was it beat OFF the manliest guy or beat UP? Hmmm… doesn’t matter. Everybody liked me after anyway.
I’m just saying: as a guy, this is not the only double standard, and not the only thing that people see as “you did it once so you’re $thing forever” that guys go through.
It’s probably one of the most notable though.
As men, we deal with a lot of judgemental shit and we’re expected to deal with it “like a man”… Whatever the fuck that means.
Another good example of this is crying. If you have a mental breakdown and fall into a crying fit, people will brand you as a cry baby or some shit, and that will stay with you for a long ass time.
There’s so much more. I don’t have time to think of, nor detail any of it. Any fellas that have examples, I invite you too add them in reply. Ladies, you can too. And anyone else can, honestly; let’s not forget our non-binary family.
I’ve had two relationships with women immediately go downhill after I cried in front of them. It was like someone flipped a switch and turned off any physical attraction they had to me.
I’ve discovered that emotional availability means you’re available to mirror her emotions. If she’s mad, you better get mad. If she’s sad, you better get sad.
Conversation about this can be helpful with the right person. I felt rather one sided in the emotional validation in my relationship. We had a long emotional talk about it and things are better now.
I’ve had two relationships with women immediately go downhill after I cried in front of them. It was like someone flipped a switch and turned off any physical attraction they had to me.
Can absolutely confirm this, myself, on a personal level.
Never let them see you genuinely vulnerable unless you want to drive them away, or want that to be weaponized against you at some point in the future. Sometimes even both, but never neither.
Only ever provide curated vulnerabilities that offer of themselves no true vulnerability, but satisfies any desire they may have to see vulnerability in you. Like being distressed at the sight of an unknown dead dog on the side of the road, for example. Clean, simple, controllable, and superficial.
Violate this tenet at your own psychological risk.
This is the way of things.
I’m not saying it’s right, just, or how it should be, but in my experience, yes, this.
I’m not saying it’s right, just, or how it should be,
What makes it infinitely more worse is that almost all women fully and absolutely deny this happens, even when behaving exactly like this.
It’s why such near-ubiquitous behaviour - and women’s hypocritical denial of its existence - is widely documented within both redpill and blackpill writings, and is one of the core reasonings behind MGTOW.
Such overwhelmingly predictable behaviours are what make those philosophies so devastatingly effective and compelling long before anything even mildly misogynistic crops up… after all, facts and evidence that survive tests of disproof speak volumes. These philosophies would have no reason to exist if behaviours and double standards like this weren’t everywhere, and all it takes for a man to see them properly is for their societal brainwashing to be disrupted.
I’ll be honest, I can’t imagine not being able to cry in front of my partner. It sounds depressive.
It sounds depressive.
It’s how “toxic masculinity” is forced upon men against their will.
Do we want to be sensitive and vulnerable? Sure!
Do we want partners that can accept that sensitivity and vulnerability? Of course!!But when the vast majority of women do not do as they say, or say as they do, the calculus becomes massively brutal and clear-cut: either cram that shit down to where it will never see the light of day, or see it emotionally/sexually revolt our partner and possibly even make them leave.
TBH I think “toxic masculinity” is a shitty term for the concept. It feels like calling forced female gender roles “toxic femininity”.
Yes! It’s intentionally used to invoke blame. Foremost by implying that some list of bad behaviours is only or primarily displayed by men, and secondly by implying that it is the fault of men (often read as all men) when they exhibit these behaviours. I would much rather we just call it toxic behaviour. Both sexes are capable of violence, jealousy, etc. “Toxic masculinity” merely ensures half of the people one is speaking to switch off and might even take the opposite side of the discussion because it’s really offensive.
i do wild shit to make the girls im dating lose attraction for me all the time. burping really loud constantly, saying the word “COCKS” when i sneeze, crying about wall-e, shitting with the door open. who cares?
You are my hero.
Watch him as he goes.
The door is open after all
People like this are the progressive version of evangelicals. And like with Christianity they don’t get called out enough to keep it from becoming a major problem.
Villainizing male sexuality is why we have a whole new generation boys heading into alt right circles and so far the response has been a variant of telling them to ‘man up.’ And its going to get a lot worse before it gets even a little better.
This is the root of the problem with much of the discussion around male identity online.
Women finally, and rightfully, gained a voice, and plenty of dudes listened. Many of them, not really understanding feminism as an academic discipline or having any real sympathy towards any aspect of being a man, used that voice to point of the many issues faced by women in the world and to fight for women.
Where this falls apart is that because of the lack of real understanding regarding feminism and the concept of patriarchy, a lot of it boiled down to “shut up, the women are talking” and “we don’t care about your problems”
None of this makes the problems away, none of this is really geared towards equality, and much of it is just switching the genders on deeply toxic patriarchal power structures that were used to oppress women for centuries.
When you think about how stupid 90% of the people involved on both sides of this discourse online are, it’s of little surprise so many women went looking for easy answers from hucksters who pitched exploitation and oppression as empowerment.
I really liked bell hooks’s approach to this. She focuses on incorporating male problems into feminism as a focal point, not excluding them.
Interesting. What’s a good place to start reading what bell hooks said about this?
The Will to Change by bell hooks is the book you want! Short read too, but very meaningful. I’ve been making my way through it extremely slowly for several months, trying to digest everything. It’s interesting to see how she often conflicts with a lot of contemporary feminists as well.
they don’t get called out enough to keep it from becoming a major problem.
idk man 9 times out of 10 I hear someone talking about progressives, they’re exclusively referring to the most hypocritical ones. Like, when does anyone talk about the normal progressives that just want good things for everyone? That’s boring.
I wouldn’t consider a woman that drops a guy for this reason to be a progressive.
You would be suprised by how much of the left hates bisexuals, without realizing that makes them as bad as any other bigot
Some of the weirdest shit I have seen in the LGBT sphere is how comfortable some of them are with dictating who is allowed to date whom and whether or not their preferences are okay.
It’s the main reason I don’t really vibe with the LGBT community. Don’t mind gays and trans and whatever else is out there. Normal people living their normal lives and loving the people they love and finding ways to be comfortable in their own bodies is how things should be.
But the LGBT sometimes reminds me of organized religion. It’s not the individual believer who lives his or her life in peace who is the problem, but the weird cultlike behavior going on in the group where everybody has to hold the same opinions that tend to become progressively more extreme over time until the church controls every aspect of your life. Including whom your are allowed to love.
But it is difficult to bring this up without immediately being labeled a phob because the LGBT owns non-straight sexuality and if you criticize the movement, you criticize all the non straight people.
BLM has similar vibes.
I just don’t like groups. Churches, political groups, grassroots movements, you name it. It all ends up the same in the end. With group pressure, control, shaming and ostracizing when you don’t toe the line.
If I learned anything in my 20s, its that being a part of any ideological groups is not in your best interest. No matter how good and safe it feels in the beginning.
I’ve had these conversations with people before. I was telling a fellow man how I don’t care if my partner is bi. He said something like “woah man, there can be some major trust issues there” implying that her “homosexual needs” will lead her to cheat on me with my sister or something. I didn’t follow his logic.
I’m a straight male. My wife is bi. The most important part of her orientation, to me, is that it means everyone else was my competition for her love instead of just other men, but I still won.
Damn it, not all bi people are greedy horn dogs.
I mean, I am, but not all of us are.
As if straight/gay people don’t cheat all the time because they’re apparently not getting their “needs” met. The person being shitty is the issue, not their sexuality.
I wouldn’t say “the left” but biphobia is absolutely insane among non traitor lunatics.
biphobia is prevalent even among gays and lesbians. It sucks.
Absolutely. My wife was bisexual and many lesbians wanted nothing to do with her.
If he’s a hot twink, then yeah no that’d be fine with me. Perfectly understandable.
Bi guys are the best. Me too, thanks.
The funniest part about this to me is that the AIDs epidemic actually forced medical researchers to accept that sometimes guys have sex with other guys, and they even created the term “Men who have Sex with Men” or MSM to cover this fact, since they aren’t necessarily gay or bi.
Like, society needs to get over this. Sometimes people have sex with other people. Sometimes they happen to be different genders, sometimes they’re the same. It only means whatever it means to the people fucking and little else
If everyone just embraced being queer, everything would be ok. Sex and relationships can barely survive identity politics, old school or new.
> Be me
> Be straightWell, fuck me, I guess
Well, if you insist, bud, but you’ll need to update those labels when we’re done. ⚔⚔ /j
fwiw the ‘queer’ women in my life have been the most judgemental of my sexuality. i guess if you agonize about your own sexuality all the time you project that onto other folks though.
I’m sure this isn’t universal but every self identified queer person I’ve met or dated has made it their entire personality.
That’s probably not a coincidence, as the label “queer” is a political identity statement. That is, the people who have made it an important part of their personality are the ones who self-identify that way. I’ve known many gay men and women for whom their sexuality is an incidental part of their lives, and none of them feel affinity for the “queer” label.
I’m in my mid thirties, and I’m a bi woman who tends to go for bi men. I was once chatting about one of my exes with my dad and same aged stepsister, when she expressed deep surprise that I would be willing to date a man who had dated a man. My dad agreed, which is par for the course, but I could not for the life of me get a believable answer from my stepsister as to why that would be a dealbreaker.
She had been part of the GSA in one of the most progressive towns in America and was at that time in first cohort of women to join a previously men-only fraternity at her college, so she definitely falls under the progressive umbrella.
I literally can’t think of a reason except for donating blood, but that wasn’t it.
I mean you kinda said the reason yourself: “[she] join[ed] a previously men-only fraternity at her college”. Of course I’m only speculating.
The people she surrounded herself with probably thought that way and thus she thought that way. Most people do not think critically about their beliefs very much, yes even most progressives are just progressives because of the people around them.
I literally can’t think of a reason except for donating blood, but that wasn’t it.
What is the correlation between donating blood and being homophobic ?
Gay and bi men are often excluded from donating due to higher HIV risk I believe.
For a long time (at least through the late 2010s and possibly still now, I’m no longer a good candidate to donate for other reasons), you couldn’t donate if you were a man who had sex with men (MSM) or if you had had sex with a MSM recently (6 months-2 years). Your own condom use was irrelevant.
I did once decide to stick with hands only with someone because I had an appointment to donate blood later that week. My stepsister wasn’t aware of that restriction though and I can’t imagine it’s the presiding reason why a lot of even queer women aren’t interested in bi men, given the demographics of blood donation.
There are a lot of wild things that preclude you from donating blood depending on where you live though, including time spent in the UK during the mad cow disease spike, even if you were a vegan. I understand that blood donation organizations are working with such large numbers and such a small margin for error that they would rather exclude a thousand good candidates than let one bad candidate donate, but it ends up being extremely discriminatory. I looked for some recent numbers, and it is true that even today the majority of new HIV cases occur in MSM or people who have sex with MSM, but given how widespread HIV suppression treatment is (in the US), correct condom usage reduces that risk to nearly zero.
The FDA actually revised their donor rules for LGBT donors, so many blood donation places, the red cross for example, no longer have this restriction.
Um, no. I am an old Xer lady and we know men can be bi too. And like the ladies… sexuality is on a continuum. Some people just love to canoodle with young beautiful bodies no matter what flavor… and as we get older, old beautiful kind considerate people.
I’ve seen so many cases of staunch progressive groups weaponize a guys sexuality as soon as they have a falling out with him. Its like these people never believed what they were saying. People are so spineless and have no morals.
In my older age I’ve come to the realization that a lot of people join movements just to belong, not because they actually hold the conviction. I think in fact there are people who aren’t capable of even having a conviction, just bouncing between whatever expressive habits are most convenient socially
You see it with things like politics and religion too
Its hard to be morally consistent. But not impossible.
Some people clearly aren’t even trying.
With leftists and progressives the louder they are about their beliefs and virtues the less they actually follow those through. Just like with religious people, it’s just virtue signaling.
My favourite is the ones who scream about slut shaming then use “virgin” as an insult.
Although that seems to have fallen out of fashion lately.
That specific insult I mean, not hypocrisy.
People always say stuff to me like, “You definitely live with your parents”. That one is super common. Like, who cares? It’s weird for me personally because I moved out over 20 years ago, but nothing wrong if I did live with my folks. It’s a world as hard as stone out there.
Also, “you live in a basement”. I mean, it’s technically true. I spend a lot of time in my office that happens to be in a basement of a house I own.
Well, the bank owns most of it, but the point stands.
It’s not out of fashion at all, “virgin” just became “incel”. The intent is identical.
Not really. Incel implies a level of indoctrination into a misogynistic POV that has you convinced that you’re better off alone. It’s not the same as insulting someone for simply not having had sex yet.
edit: not that I think either is a productive thing to call another person
Incel implies a level of indoctrination into a misogynistic POV
No one is thinking this deeply when they call a man who just said/did something they don’t like an “incel”. People just use it mindlessly as an insult, same as with “virgin”.
Not at all. Incels are almost overwhelmingly misogynistic and into a lot of weird pseudo scientific shit. Incels are those claiming they deserve women but at the same time don’t deserve them because they’re too beta and all the rich alphas are getting 10 chicks a second, so they excuse their lack of success with dating in a lot of made up bullshit to delude themselves into never improving as people.
Incels are not just virgins, they’re basically a cult, and thinking people use it just as ‘virgin’ is either deliberately obtuse or ignorant
I agree with everything you said, but also, there are absolutely people who just call weird guys incels regardless of whether or not it actually fits.
