Full IDF Spokesperson statement:
Attached is the briefing: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC1810202362
Attached is a recording of a conversation between Hamas operatives regarding the Islamic Jihad failed rocket launch on the hospital on October 17, 2023: https://bit.ly/3S4xqiG
Attached is a visual analysis following the IAF’s examination on the subject: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC1810156854
Attached is an infographic of all the failed rocket launches in the Gaza Strip since the beginning of the war: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/1810202309876543672
Attached is a photograph from the IDF launch identification system on the subject: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC18102023984
Looks like evidence has been published, and at least partially verified by OSINT groups (in the linked article)
Alright, gonna be a skeptic.
We’re seeing an Israeli news source followed by an IDF statement with IDF evidence, so a conflict of interest does exist with these sources, though that doesn’t mean either is lying. That being said, if Israel did deliberately target a hospital in Gaza with as many eyes on Gaza as there are, that’d be a really fucking stupid move. At the same time, If they did, lying and completely fabricating everything is in their highest interest. At minimum, though, I think that any trustworthiness one would associate with journalists or military Intel be thrown out, and the evidence be viewed with skepticism
There is also some oppositely damning evidence in circulation. GeoConfirmed apparently did their own locating of where the video occurred, and - if accurate - from the videos perspective, the missile was moving northwest, from the direction of Israel. They are also A third party in this, though, so their bias is not immediately determinable from this one tweet, nor can the factuality be easily confirmed.
We’re still in the fog of war, and simultaneously a war for our minds and support is being waged. I am going to wait for more information from more parties to arrive.
EDIT: I previously stated the tweet I linked claimed the missile was moving north east, which it doesn’t - that’s my misphrasing. The tweet I linked specifically repeats the falling shrapnel story - though the evidence they show shows the camera looking southeast, with the missile coming from said direction towards the camera. I’ve rewritten it to be more clear.
The geoconfirmed link in your article (to x) actually claims the opposite of what you are claiming it does:
„ Conclusion:
A missile launched by a Palestinian group exploded mid-air (Reason unknown) and one piece fell on the hospital causing an explosion.
The geolocation and timing of the footage is conclusive.„
If it were Israel, they would just say Hamas was using the hospital as a military facility like they have in the past.
Their minister did say that before he deleted the tweet. I guess they realise what they had done and decided to say “wasn’t us”
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Something that occurs to me that I can’t really get out of my head is perhaps Israel using it’s iron dome system to intercept missiles so that the shrapnel lands inside Gaza. I don’t know much about the iron dome system, nor what the alternatives to making missile shrapnel fall on civilians are.
If anyone with more knowledge about these things could weigh in, I’d appreciate it.
No shot a Hamas rocket has that kind of firepower, especially after detonation.
If you watch the comparison video, it sounds very much like a US JDAM rig (which is like a strap-on guidance system for normally-dumb ordinance; so instead of just falling from a plane and hoping for the best, it can aim and steer to a target.
Do you know who has US military tech? Hmmm
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Again: So there is a sound comparison of two videoclips with no information whatsoever when they were created and what they are showing.
Why is that proof for anything?
If it was a misfire, it could still have been full of fuel, could that have had an effect?
(Not seen videos)
Yeah, I pulled open those clips from @zerfuffle and had an “oh damn” moment. It sounds identical.
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Alright, let’s get an independent to verify, but it’s looking pretty damning for Hamas at this point.
Yeah, they didn’t shoot that, it was the Palestinian Islamic Jihad according to the evidence delievered by Israel. Not the same groups, although they coordinate sometimes. But Hamas went right out of the gate blaming Israel despite apparently knowing better, and that’s just not a good look at all if true.
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The tankies still like them because USA = bad and Israel = USA
Tankies also once again allied in mind with the Nazis.
Doing literal genocide denial because someone on hexbear made a point you didn’t like and you got called out for your response.
Sad bro
Blatantly lying all over the Internet and media is actually a semi-good look these days, unfortunately.
Oh damn, lying online might tarnish Hamas’s reputation?
Hey guys, specifically targeting, torturing, and murdering hundreds of civilians was fine - but we should really draw the line at lying online. That’s just barbarous.
Does it? Israel is the last person to trust. I wouldn’t even trust them if they admitted it
Lol. But you would trust these Hamas psychos?
I mean an Israeli minister actually went out and said “we hit a Hamas base”. That’s also pretty damning.
Edit: To correct myself, I have no idea why I thought he was a minister. He’s part of Netenyahu’s “digital team”, whatever that is.
Source for that?
Unfortunately it’s a now-deleted tweet but there.
https://kbin.social/m/world@lemmy.world/t/548047/Israel-kills-500-in-Gaza-hospital-massacre#entry-comment-3020730
Dude, have you done like, any research on this guy? This guy is not a ‘minister.’ He is basically tech support. He is (or was) on the digital team. Not in the military, not an official, not a spokesperson for Israel in any capacity. He is an Israel fanatic influencer.
I have seen this posted everywhere as somehow ‘proof’ but it’s a fricken influencer who jumped the gun and then got told to shut up because he had his info wrong and deleted the tweet.
This is proof of absolutely nothing except influencers are cancer.
If anyone can clarify what ‘digital team’ even means, that would be great. It could mean this guy is in charge of photoshopping out lens flares.
Too easy to buy a blue tick and cause rampant misinformation to start flying. Twitter used to be pretty good for breaking news, now it’s impossible to trust any accounts without a lot of research.
Okay fair enough. I misremembered him as a minister for some reason. Also yeah, what’s a digital team?
Both sides have online propaganda teams to influence people’s opinions on the conflict.
Which may or may not be this guy, but yes.
This comment is worthy of upvotes guys, mistake was admitted.
I mean, could he have been refering to a different location? According to the Israel briefing, there was no activity of theirs at that time in the area of the hospital. I imagine there is a lot going on on both sides in all kinds of locations at all times at the moment.
Very compelling evidence, especially if it gets verified. They even adressed the question mark of it being more damage than these groups usually do when their missiles hit. It would be very high stakes lying, but then again, this is a high stakes situation. Whoever did that has a lot of innocent blood on their hands.
Lots of Islamic Jihad & Hamas missiles fail during flight and kill Palestinians. Israel had published videos in the past showing e.g. 8 launches at night, pausing the video and showing how 2 or 3 suddenly turn down to the ground to hit the Gaza strip. And of course the local terrorist groups accounted dead Palestinians to Israel striking those locations. It’s sometimes easy to show, with visible rocket engines at night and sometimes harder.
It happens all the time. Hamas and Islamic Jihad don’t care for civilians or conventions and never did, all they care about is literally “killing Jews”. Next question people should be asking: “why are they launching rockets from a hospital’s parking lot? Isn’t that a warcrime?” And the answer is yes and always has been.
Also note that launching rockets from the hospital makes it a legitimate target and therefore not a warcrime to hit it. Innocents die but it is fair game to destroy it when used as a platform to launch attacks from.
News outlets don’t give a shit nor does the public. They all jumped at the initial news, regurgitated it verbatim and now that cool heads are analyzing everything it doesn’t matter anymore. PR was done.
They even adressed the question mark of it being more damage than these groups usually do when their missiles hit.
Can you help me find that bit? I read the article and briefing, but didn’t see this addressed.
The Guardian had it in their coverage:
On how a rocket fired from Gaza could cause so much damage he said:
The existence of propellant made a larger explosion than the warhead itself. And this caused the damage, the explosions that we see of the burning cars here.
Ah, thanks!
Makes sense, kinda like how the jets on 9/11 also had full fuel tanks.
The existence of propellant made a larger explosion than the warhead itself. And this caused the damage, the explosions that we see of the burning cars here.
I’m not an expert but this doesn’t sound very plausible considering the explosion basically leveled the building. Anyone with relevant expertise care to chime in?
What I’m seeing pro-Israel sources saying is that the building is relatively intact and that the explosion took place in a parking lot. Given that Hamas stated “500 deaths” less than half an hour after the event, they also express some skepticism about how true the casualty count really is.
I’ll only say that this is a total mess right now and that everything should be seen with some skepticism, especially claims that reinforce what you already believe or want to believe.
What I’m seeing pro-Israel sources saying is that the building is relatively intact and that the explosion took place in a parking lot.
We’ve already seen the building. It was flattened.
Edit: Apparently no it wasn’t.
Honest question, do you have a picture of it? I’ve been incredibly confused about what the true state of the site is. I just saw a video showing the scorched parking lot with a bunch of burnt cars but no real structural damage to buildings around it.
I just looked up “Gaza hospital airstrike” and looked for images so you’ll probably find them, but there.
https://whdh.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2023/10/gaza-3.jpg
Why do you think it leveled the building? Have you seen such evidence?
I mean yes I’ve seen a picture of it. Aren’t those already on the internet?
Then you’ve been mislead. It hit the parking lot, damaged vehicles but left the building relatively intact and, besides windows, superficially damaged.
Here’s a video from the place of the explosion - I see no leveled buildings there, just the burned parking lot.
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714535687070916987
Okay I actually made the effort to listen to the Audio and took a look at those photos.
The two men in the audio recording are talking about a misfire that happened directly behind the hospital - from a nearby cemetery to be exact.
On the other hand you attached a picture that shows a rocket launch site that is quite a long way from the Hospital - or is this the cemetery those men in the voice recording were talking about?
https://idfanc.activetrail.biz/ANC18102023984
Are you sure that this is the right picture?
Does anyone have sources on what kind of missiles Palestinian groups typically have access to? I think that would be very useful in evaluating the claims being made.
Holy shit, those are much bigger than anything I had imagined them having.
Those are all rockets that claim to have been used. Notably most were caught trying to enter Gaza because they’re goddamn huge. 99% of everything fired from Gaza is going to be homemade, small and slow as fuck which is why iron dome even though it’s not particularly sophisticated compared to ciws of major nations.
They build their own.
I would count that as having access to them. But that by itself doesn’t answer the question of what exactly they’re able to build and if it’s big enough to do as much damage as we saw. Based on someone else’s link it looks like they do have missiles big enough to do catastrophic damage to a large building, especially if they crash right after takeoff and are full of propellant. That was a surprise to me. It’s not proof of anything but it does make Israel’s story seem more plausible.
Oh yeah, I’m not out here to weigh in at all about what happened.
Just weighing in with the answer to the very reasonable question of “where do the rockets come from?”
Well, there’s this: https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714359458967466235
So there is a sound comparison of two videoclips with no information whatsoever when they were created and what they are showing.
So this here is the current view on the area where supposedly about 500 people died. Also there are allegedly more than 300 wounded.
Questions I personally have:
- where is the rubble and where is the bomb crater?
- why does the building seem undamaged?
- how do you fit 800 people in this parking lot?
I wonder where all the people from yesterday are now…for them it was damn sure Israel and if you made the mistake to publish this second opinion or made the suggestion to wait for other sources your were downvoted into oblivion…
But also with this new source I would wait until it is verified independently. I really like this approach from our german news station Tagesschau, where all news get a label until they are verified by different, independent sources. Makes fake news a lot less common.
It would not be the first time Israel has targeted health treatment facilities
https://theintercept.com/2021/05/21/gaza-bombing-hospital-israel/
I think most people were rightly suspicious because it has happened before.
just to be very clear here: Even if this cruel and should be absolutely prevented, when the space around or the medical facility itself is used by the enemy forces to launch attacks or store ammunition or other equipment, it makes it a valid, military target. Attacking a hospital is not automatically a war crime as it is declared by many here…
I would go as far to say that using a hospital or civilian building as a base of operations to launch missiles from is the war crime in this scenario. If innocent people die from retaliation for that, the blood is on the hands of the people who chose to use civilians as meat shields and make them a target in the first place.
Edit: To be clear, this isn’t a pro-Israel comment. Fuck them. I was just saying that if Hamas actually used hospitals as launch sites or military bases they would be the ones who are responsible. I don’t know for certain if they did or didn’t at this time.
It actually is a war crime to do that
I wonder where all the people from yesterday are now…
this article is 25 minutes old at time of writing, how is anyone supposed to talk about any of this stuff when you start comments like this.
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German news already posted about this yesterday and I added it to the thread from yesterday which is now deleted…
German news already posted about this yesterday and I added it to the thread from yesterday which is now deleted…
damn those people for not reading your comment on a thread from yesterday that is now deleted, what are they even doing? they need to answer for themselves.
Not engaging with deleted comments is a literal war crime!
LOL and then everyone downvotes you, proving your point further. You’re right though, last night was a shitshow of people taking sides with almost no data and then downvoting anyone on the other team.
Not saying that there are vile people that are just rooting for their football team no matter what happens, but I did fine here offering the opinion that both statements were - at the time - equally not backed by evidence. I did mention, that the Guardian did mention that the size of explosion is more than usual for the weapons of the militants, but even that didn’t necessearily mean that it was Israel.
If we’re looking at this we should look at all neews criticial, especially if one supports a side over the other. It’s too easy to fall for hopeful rumours and fantasies anyways. Seen too many people who just go on any unbacked claim by either side “aha! I knew it”. It’s a volatile and chaotic situation and a lot of bad actors just try to score points.
They don’t care that they were wrong. The next time Hamas claims Israel did something bad they will believe it instantly and only question whatever IDF says. It’s not about the truth but what they wished the truth was.
Both sides of the argument are so entrenched they engage in cognitive dissonance and cherry picking almost constantly.
which is stupid as fuck.
I’m skeptical of both claims, but so far the evidence leans far more on it being Israeli strike. Especially with their continuously changing narrativem
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Uh… take a look at this.
https://kbin.social/m/world@lemmy.world/t/548047/Israel-kills-500-in-Gaza-hospital-massacre#entry-comment-3020730
Maybe not 100% Israel, but a good 99.9%.
Also quick reminder that Hamas rockets can’t cause the scale of destruction that happened to the hospital. This is much more believable from an IDF airstrike.
At the very least, you should look at all evidence given to us before making a judgement.
Alone that you are saying “Hamas” rockets shows that you have not really dove into the topic. Because not even Israel claimed it was Hamas, but Islamic Jihad, which is a distinct group. Furthermore, they also had an argument regarding the increased damage.
I suggest you look at what we know first, before you make a judgement like “99.9%”. This disinformation shit happens on both sides and it must be stopped. The situation doesn’t get any clearer by people doing this.
Because not even Israel claimed it was Hamas, but Islamic Jihad, which is a distinct group.
Yeah, fair enough. Palestinian rockets in general don’t have that kind of explosive capability, but I said Hamas because saying “Palestinians” incriminates too many people, which was probably not a smart decision now that I think about it.
Yeah, thanks for your insight. I don’t fault you for being angry at Israel, I am too. But all the more reason to stick to the facts and don’t criticize Israel on loose grounds. There are enough crimes we know they did, and it’s less than productive to make something we don’t know for sure is their fault into their fault only to have facts blown up in our faces.
Sticking as close a possible to the facts, consider information of all kinds, even if we don’t like the people, it’s important in this disinformation war raging on the topic. We can be better than the people who still repeat the false 40 beheaded babies.
https://kbin.social[1]/m/world@lemmy.world[2]/t/548047/Israel-kills-500-in-Gaza-hospital-massacre#entry-comment-3020730
I addressed this mysterious deleted tweet above, but TL;DR the guy is an influencer and that should tell you all you need to know about believing anything he says.
So, what I gather from this thread and others:
Islamic Jihad, a group separate from Hamas and not getting missiles from Iran, cobbles together their own home-made rocket made out of duck tape and twine and fires it at Israel. The rocket, unsurprisingly, falls apart and part of it falls on the parking lot of Gaza city hospital, killing about a dozen or so people. Hamas rushes to the scene and asks how many are dead. Gaza hospital says 500 - 12 from the missile and 488 from the … you know siege and food/medicine blockade.
Hamas knows that the IDF has targeted this hospital before and had no doubt that they would it again, and since the missile didn’t come from them, releases a press release saying the IDF bombed a hospital and 500 are dead. This makes President Abbas call off his meeting with Biden and throws a wrench in the peace process, just what Hamas wants.
The IDF initially just say “Hamas did it,” and if you disagree we’ve got this new law that jails reporters for saying bad stuff about Israel. Then they release a video footage of a different rocket barrage that has nothing to do with anything. Biden comes over and goes: “Come on, this isn’t the cold war, it’s the information age. We’ve got like 10 live web cams throughout Gaza city streaming, OSINT probably got it. If you didn’t do it, there ain’t any reason to lie about it.”
Of course, that is just what I got from Lemmy, so probably a mix of propaganda from both sides. Feel free to yell all the corrections in the world in the replies.
Speaking of livestream, this seems to be a video from that night, from a geolocated position :
https://twitter.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106
We see a rocket being launched, seemingly missfire and blowing up high in the sky, then two explosions, the second one being near the hospital.
To someone who can’t be bothered doing any independent research, this sounds the most likely.
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Do you think linking to an electronic intifada article makes you seem more or less biased?
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Read the article. Separate sources have come up with videos from another angle, backing Israel’s claim.
Oh, is that the one with the wrong timestamp? Or is that the one where all the lights are still on in Gaza? Sorry I’m getting all my IDF propaganda confused
Sorry I’m getting all my IDF propaganda confused
You are not the slightest bit better, by spreading an obscure Video that has no information whatsoever when/where it was made and what exactly is shown.
Thousands of missiles were fired from Gaza last week, and apparently none of them turned around and struck Gaza. On the other hand Israel has been conducting a bombing campaign this week that has blown up a whole lot of buildings, including (according to the NYT) 4 other hospitals… It is obviously possible that this was an errant missile from Gaza, it is much more likely that this was a bomb from Israel.
Did you see the report? Quite a lot of rockets fired from Gaza fails and hit somewhere in Gaza.
That would be a remarkable fail rate if that is the case
and apparently none of them turned around and struck Gaza.
5-20% depending on the type of missile/rocket generally land inside the Strip. They don’t use aerospace grade materials, so imperfections that wouldn’t cause a problem in 100 years of use as an irrigation pipe end up failing on the multiple G forces associated with rocketry.
Bro just watch the video of Hamas rocket impacts and compare it against the hospital impact, there is no fucking way that’s a homemade sewer pipe rocket.
Lol sure
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