Capstones are rarely acquired in actual play since next-to-no groups manage to get to 20. Even published adventures tend to end at 18, or see very little content beyond 20. Having capstones at 18 would enable more groups to be able to actually play with these cool superpowers.
Epic boons may feel a bit flavorless compared to features handcrafted for specific classes, but there isn’t much point if no one is playing with them. And even if an epic boon isn’t tailored to a class, they can still make a significant impact for those few who do make it all the way to 20. I see it as a reward for the victory lap, rather than finishing the race. It would even give impotence to the concept of running a 18-20 campaign, and I could easily see myself running this kind of game.
Fighter, Paladin, and Sorcerer have subclass progression beyond 18, which would disrupt WotC’s shift to re-standardize subclass progression. But a simple nudge of those features could easily be done in a mere side-note added to the new handbook without disrupting game balance or adding much complexity.
I can’t argue against there being a definite novel righteousness about a class’ big superpower coming online at 20. But I feel that the impact of shifting that spike to 18 is both healthier for the game and not as detracting as one could expect.
I’d love to see a complete rollback on the decision to standardize subclass progression with the 2014 version, but that’s a whole separate can of worms.
Does anyone disagree? Are there merits to the 20th-level capstone that I haven’t accounted for?
I think that a martial class’s biggest ability should be universally available at level 17 because that’s when casters get access to 9th level spells.
I also think that pure casters should not get big class-abilities beyond level 3 or 4. Their 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells already are huge game-changers. They don’t need to double-down for no reason.
Then at some point you will run into another problem - later in the game, all casters besides maybe sorcerer feel the same. Yeah, you have class features, but when you have a choice between casting high level spell or using class feature you will choose high level spell in 9 times out of 10. Also, most of the casters subclass features are enabling certain playstyles instead of giving new OP ability.
I really liked the 18th level capstone and standard subclass level progression from the first playtest. We just hit 11th level in my game that we have been playing for 2 years. It’s so hard to hit those highest tiers.
The only way I can see getting to the endgame is by starting at high levels. The idea of playing in a game all the way from 1 to 20 is the dream, but the circumstances in which that can happen are incredibly rare. I’m iffy on the subclass standardization, but I’m not too bent out of shape by it. Like, I can see merit to having some classes obtain their subclass at level 1 and there are a few classes that could benefit from having their progression reworked. I can see the advantage of all classes having new subclass features all at the same time though.
The idea of playing in a game all the way from 1 to 20 is the dream, but the circumstances in which that can happen are incredibly rare.
Not really. It just takes patients and a regular gaming schedule.
Getting WotC to release adventures supporting anything above level 13 would help too.
The all the same level subclass can make some cross class subclasses which is a cool concept. But it’s really a theoretical idea at this point.
The level 20 one shot is kind of a standard short game. So I can see the 20 level capstone for that
I like 10 levels. More new stuff per level and the time spend on a level gives better familiarity with the classes
All that happens then is level 10 becomes the new level 20. Either you never reach level 10, or you hit level 10 early enough that you start needing some kind of post-level-cap advancement system.
Epic six works. I’d rather add Prestige levels beyond 10, than to never reach max level. And going 4 sessions without a level feels weird enough to speedup the process
I think some of WotC’s design philosophy with 5.5 is about encouraging faster progression so that more groups do get to 20.
However, their focus on revamping the PHB, rather than the DMG, leaves the onus for balance on the DM, which has IMO always been the limiting factor. Designing encounters for level 17 players is wildly different from level 16 players. If capstones come at 18 and represent anything close to the power jump that 9th level spells provide, that’s two back-to-back power jumps in very close succession. IMO that would actually drive more DMs to end at 17, rather than 18, or even sooner to avoid reaching those T4 power jumps at all. If they delay their BBEG encounter until those powerups, they have little to no experience with their group’s new abilities to accurately balance on the knife’s edge of very deadly, and risk either a TPK or a floppy conclusion if they miscalculate. “Easier to balance in T3, and end there” is, I believe, still the status quo.
Now, if after the PHB rewrite they make it easier for DMs to balance T4 encounters in a DMG rewrite, thst might change things. In that case, spreading the power jumps out still makes sense to me.
I think some of WotC’s design philosophy with 5.5 is about encouraging faster progression so that more groups do get to 20.
Here’s hoping they bother to write some fucking adventures that go above level 11. Faster progression isn’t going to matter if they don’t actually support the gameplay in any way, shape, or form.
Even faster progression?!
My inner grognard already thinks that 5e levels characters up way too fast. The rest of me enjoys most things about 5e, so it’s not a big deal. When I DM, I can use milestone-based leveling and dial it to my preference.
Personally I’ve actually played at level 20 far more than I’ve played at level 18. I’ve never reached level 18 in a standard ongoing campaign, but I have played level 20 one-shots.
Besides, so many of the existing capstones are honestly rather lacklustre. It’s not that interesting to get “thing you could do before, but a bit more often” as the reward for putting all of your effort into being the best <insert class> you can be.
I like 10 levels. More new stuff per level and the time spend on a level gives better familiarity with the classes
I do see where you’re coming from, but I think that basically just makes 18 the new 20. If you’re already going to 18, going to 20 from there isn’t really a stretch, but you’re less likely to want to if you already got your cool capstone at 18.
