Beliefs are important, beliefs are what gets us through life somewhat mentally sane.
Beliefs are (for example) the cornerstone of relationships, because you have to believe that your partner really loves you. There is no hard evidence for that so it can never be a fact, only a belief.
I believe that my neighbors don’t plan to kill me in my sleep (why should they, I am a nice and easy neighbor), I believe that the person at the fast food corner doesn’t spit on my food (and that they had washed hands after using the toilet), I believe that my landlord will some day repair the water damage in my second bathroom (and put all the bathroom stuff like sink, shower and toilet back in).
One could say that belief is behind everything where “trust” is involved. Belief is just accepting something as true, either because it is something that is a concept without hard facts (love, religion, justice, freedom, money, “the good in people”) or it is something where the information are lacking either because they are not fully known yet or because it is such a complex topic that having all information is (nearly) impossible.
I believe for example that climate change is real, because I trust (there it is again) the science. I have to believe in this case because I can’t have all the information without studying climate sciences, and one can argument that even our best climate scientists doesn’t have all the information (models are still incomplete and simulations don’t use all possible parameters) so even they have to believe for some parts.
Beliefs become problematic when people take them as hard facts, as dogmas, and become extreme.
I believe that taking extreme positions is always wrong and a way to disaster and suffering. That’s one reason why I don’t like faith and are against cults of any kinds.
Are you saying that beliefs are useful (necessary even) for navigating other beliefs?
For example, I believe that my neighbors wont kill me. I do that to stave off the belief that my neighbors will kill me.
The part with the neighbors was more or less only a joke. If i believe anything about them, then that they are good, honest and peacefull people. Because so far nothing happend to make be think otherwise.
The belief that the neighbors will kill someone (oneself for example) sounds more like a delusion… or a really bad neighborhood!
In both cases is a counter belief maybe not the best solution
But yes, i do think that beliefs can be helpful to counter inner urges and impulses. The belief in laws and punishment by law is an example for it.
And shared beliefs (for example faith and religion) acts like a glue for societies. The belief in eternal judgment by an all knowing god in combination with a holy law book (that is what most holy texts in their core are IMHO) helps to prevent chaos and ensures that people can work against a common and shared goal. As an example for the good and positive side of that.
It was just an example.
My point is the specific utility of beliefs. You seemed to be offering an interesting one.
Imagine a landscape made of beliefs. In it you are always standing on some bunch of beliefs. So choosing and navigating is going to be important. To get to the good beliefs and avoid the bad ones.
The landscape should have some strong pillars and mountains of hard facts and factual truth. But besides that, yes it sounds like a good mind construct. Interesting idea for sure.
The more I think about it, the more I realise how less I understand this word.
I think it’s weird that people even have beliefs. Belief is a dirty word to me.
I’m inclined to agree. But I meditate and stuff.
IMO “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid opinion if you just don’t know.
Belief is a tool for achieving effects; it is not an end in itself. -Peter J. Carroll
Ah quoting. All of the authority with none of the responsibility.
Good writers borrow, great writers steal. -T.S. Elliot
Neither of which is the act of quoting.
On the contrary, quoting is exactly the act of borrowing another’s idea, but doing the courtesy of giving credit to the person from whom you borrowed it.
On the contrary
A borrowed idea stands on utility.
A quote stands on authority.
If you’re drawing authority from it, that’s on you. Sometimes you just like the turn of phrase and are giving credit.
Which is more important to you, the phrase or the credit?
I was definitely not standing on the authority of Elliott, merely making use of his words and crediting him for it, so you are simply wrong.
You are totally standing on that famous name.
Choose another tool.
I believe in science. I believe in justice, equality, and freedom. I believe fascism and capitalism is detrimental to humanity.
I do not believe in ghosts. I do not believe in gods, angels or demons. I don’t believe in an afterlife. And I don’t believe corporations are people.
Well that’s unoriginal.
I don’t believe in originality. There is nothing new under the sun.
Well that’s a safe position. Otherwise you’d look like a right schmuck.
Youre an intensely irritating person, is that your goal?
Famous Zen teachers would just whack you with a stick or cut off a finger. bam! Instant enlightenment.
Oh cry me a river.
Well that’s unoriginal.
I believe I’ll block op
Because as Terry Pratchett astutely notes in the Hogfather belief is what makes the human society possible. We invented justice, mercy, duty, laws, money etc. They exist only because we believe in them. Some beliefs make the world better, other ones worse, and we should try to emphasize the former and minimize the latter.
Ok. So there’s benefit there as long as the believing is controlled.
Is there a general benefit or liability to believing? What do we gain and lose simply by believing, no matter what the belief?
I do not believe in doors. Does that mean that I think that they should not exist or that I think that they do not exist? Yes actually!
Yeah, of course they do. They literally form the cornerstone of your worldview. If you change someone’s beliefs, you change how they see the world. That sounds pretty damn big and important.
I wish I got to be as militant about my atheist beliefs as some nut jobs can be about their faith.
Not that I really want to, but must be nice sometimes just acting like everybody that doesn’t think like me is wrong
Something about being careful what you wish for.
We could go door to door spreading our disbelief. But we generally hate proselytizers.
Some people are, it’s called antitheism. I confess when I was an edgy 16yo I was like that, but I had just left a religious cult so don’t judge me too harshly.
I went through that for the same reasons. If it was under our caregivers, they went through their traumas that caused that.
Why does it get that special role of “cornerstone”.
You have a thousand things in your perspective. Sights, sounds, vibes, random thoughts… Why does belief get this special treatment?
I think by cornerstone, they are referencing that beliefs are assumptions that form one’s model of the world.
You think by logically building on assumptions. “I remember putting leftovers in the fridge last night, so I don’t need to make dinner tonight” You assume your memories are accurate (or accurate enough) and then build on other things you “know” to construct every thought.
Sights, sounds, and vibes are a different story. They are called qualia and the raw experience of them cannot be described.
Think of qualia like the raw data you collect from an experiment. Your worldview is the scientific model you’ve built to describe this data and it rests on both fundamental logic and the beliefs/theories you currently believe in.
Unfortunately people don’t like having to change their worldview. And when you’ve held a belief for long enough, it becomes foundational to many of your other assumptions. Some people would rather say reality is wrong than change their beliefs.
The word for a belief that cannot be changed via evidence is called a “delusion” in case you ever want to piss off a religious person who says “nothing can shake my faith” like it’s a good thing.
Sounds like the idea of “belief” is just being accepted as a religious or spiritual idea. Beliefs are the cornerstone because it’s a tool we use every single day.
At the center of how we think is the fundamental idea of The Way Things Work and that comes down to how we believe the physical things around us will act and react. Just about everyone will start making a choice by comparing what we know to be real or true for ourselves and the things around us.
That cornerstone of belief is what we use to define “real and true”. Ghosts or spirits are absolutely real and true for some people while others don’t see the same evidence.
Beliefs get the special treatment because we are a collection of our experiences and each one of us has a different way of understanding how things work.
Like we believe in colors but there aren’t. It’s just the way light bends, reflects.
Ahhh. Yes, they are thinking religion. I didn’t think they’d lunge that way. I mean, with all the politics and gender stuff around these days, I figured the term would bee seen as broader. A wider range of options.
That said. Meh. Your thesis sums to “beliefs are important because beliefs are important”.
Knowledge is built on justified, true beliefs. I know and believe the sun will rise tomorrow. You can believe shit on faith, or lack of evidence, but I’d disagree if someone claims to “know” gods or ghosts exist and ask for their evidence.
I know and believe the sun will rise tomorrow.
No we don’t. Some unforeseen cosmic cataclysm could happen as I type this and obliterate our yellow star. I don’t believe it will, and have faith it won’t.
Speak for yourself, please. I am willing to change my beliefs with new information. Unless you have evidence of an asteroid heading toward our planet or whatever, I’ll stick with what I do know.
Again, faith means belief without evidence. You have every indication the sun will be fine, the earth will be fine, etc.
Cornerstones, my ASS. Beliefs are just goofy fiction. I believe you’re wearing fruit as a hat. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody should ever give a shit. It’s not a cornerstone of my life, it’s a fleeting nothing, based on nothing, worth nothing.
Some asshole taught you that beliefs are everything? They lied. You know what IS everything?
Fucking everything is! Matter, energy, reality, facts, - that’s what’s important. You believe you can walk on the Sun? “Fuck you” - Reality.
So what you are saying is that it is your own belief that the concept of beliefs encompasses only false beliefs.
So why are beliefs so important for ao many people then?
I mean sure, maybe it’s just indoctrination.
Or maybe it’s utility. Believing a nice scientific model or car repair manual can deliver definite advantages.
Or maybe it’s habit. I’m stuck in my head so arranging my mental furniture becomes important.
Or something else
So why are beliefs so important for ao many people then?
They’re a coping mechanism.
Reality often sucks, so how do you go about your day knowing that so many suffer so many injustices every day? Easy! Just ignore them and pretend like everyone will get what’s coming to them in the afterlife 👍
It’s the perfect system for tyrants: Think I’m a monster who abuses my power and intentionally makes people suffer? Well, if you even try to do anything about it you’re going to hell! Overthrowing an openly evil government is not what Jesus would do!
It’s the same mental gymnastics that people use when they blame minorities for their problems. It’s not me or my beliefs (about the world) that are wrong! It’s those trans furry kids and immigrant invaders who are destroying the very concept of everything I believe in!
It can also be a tool.
For example, the model for gravity is just a useful fiction. But it’s useful. And it being constantly useful like that, one becomes attached to it.
A scythe can be used for harvest, cutting a path, or murder. Tools are neutral, intent not so much. And purity doesn’t matter here. I can have purely loving intention and rob someone of their own. Or purely base intention and something beneficial occur by happenstance.
Nietzsche would be proud 🥲
No he wouldn’t, his philosophical viewpoint is a belief in itself. So important to him that he revolved his life around it!
You are assuming that belief = religion, but that’s waaaay off. Belief is anything you don’t know of, and I would argue that there is extremely little we do know at any given point in time. Right now I believe that the window in my room is opened because I can’t see it, and even if I looked at it, I’m believing that my eyes aren’t defying my reasoning.
Belief is what defines us as individuals, every kind of assumptions we do, anything we try to remember, any intuition we have that’s based on experience aka memory, it’s all small figments of our belief system.
Read the book Sapiens.
Being able to believe in fiction is what allows humanity to function.
Eeeee, interesting. I’ll check that out.
They do indeed.
My parents are deeply religious, but have never figured out that it’s my siblings and I who actually answer their prayers.
God sent you to them. It was their reward for rubbing their genitals together. Thank you heavenly Father!!
I always liked the line in Dogma about them, don’t turn ideas into beliefs, you can change ideas easier than beliefs. Paraphrased and I understand how much it waters down the whole problem but I still thought the idea of it was nice. Listen and be open, you shouldn’t always need to be rigid. Though mean there are still ideals I’m rigid about, respect, compassion and such. Though I always thought the idea was you thought about what worked best for everyone not just what people said you should do cause tradition.
Easily said. But the psychological power of authority is so big. Authorities in the role of leader, expert, and the authority of the consensus. It may very well be programmed into our biology to automatically obey and believe. We may find ourselves falling into rigid belief without even trying.
My dogma defines my in-group, and my in-group can’t be wrong because then that would mean that I am wrong, which I categorically can’t be. And even if I was wrong, then I would no longer be part of my in-group. Therefore, your science and logic and proof must be wrong if it contradicts my dogma.
Okay, but what about your catma? Does that define your naptimes and your need to make people believe that you must’ve meant to smash your face into the table leg after darting through the house?
Sure, but don’t even ask about my ligma
Your ma has lots of experience and wisdom in this regards.
Whatever the case, just make sure you keep your catma inside so it doesn’t get run over by your karma.
Ah, so it’s a narrative control thing. Controlling the narrative (including the narrative of me, my ego or whatever) is important.
Well this begs another question. “Why is the narrative so important”?
I mean, we stand in the midst of a constant hurricane of sights, sounds, thoughts, vibes and nameless sensations, but the narrative gets this primary role.
You gotta ask why.
Maybe we value the wrong things. Maybe greed is a lack perspective, too much isn’t enough. Kind of like people who lived during the Great Depression or had parents who insisted no penny would be spent on bubble gum.
Beliefs lead to actions. Actions affect others. It’s not super complicated.
Lots of things lead to actions. Feelings, habits, inertia, inspiration… Beliefs are not special in this.
