Over the last 4 years, the United States has endured a full-scale invasion of aliens entering and remaining in the country illegally, causing a relentless
Where is the us army ? They are supposed to protect the country from this.
Too populated by MAGAts and indoctrinated to always follow orders. Yeah technically they’re not supposed to follow unconstitutional orders, but that ship sailed with Obama’s escapades in the Middle East.
In My Lai, Hugh Thompson landed his helicopter between US troops and Vietnamese civilians, and told his men to shoot the Americans if they tried to advance. No one questioned it. The US army tried to give him a medal for heroism in conflict with the enemy, part of their general cover-up, and he told them to get fucked. Eventually, they relented, halfway admitted that what he did was right, and gave him a medal for what he actually did. A lot of people at the time thought he was a traitor but he’s a free man now with his medal, and his name is in all the books. They court-martialled the commander most responsible for the massacre, although he didn’t really get punished.
The Vietnam Veterans Against the War did some of the most hard-hitting resistance to the war.
Everyone’s an individual. The US army is comprised of every color of the rainbow all the way from total MAGAs who want to kill Arabs and Democrats and are just waiting for someone to tell them to, all the way to whole platoons of Hugh Thompsons. It is fairly likely that a lot of how this all shakes out will come down to which faction becomes the consensus faction.
Edit: Oh, also, you’re showing your hand a little bit, saying that Obama was when the ship sailed. Not that he did much of anything to stop anything, he killed plenty of people, but there was one clear specific moment at which the ship sailed, and it wasn’t Obama.
I sincerely doubt it. From what I heard the military has only gotten more authoritarian as time went on, and the war on terror brought a massive paradigm shift in terms of American attitudes towards military action. I’d wager modern Hugh Thompsons would either find the military insufferable and leave or would be eventually broken by the system like everyone else, which would explain why you used an example from Vietnam rather than a more recent one from the war on terror.
Not that he did much of anything to stop anything, he killed plenty of people, but there was one clear specific moment at which the ship sailed, and it wasn’t Obama.
I was talking about the military obeying the president as he clearly overstepped his constitutional authority. Bush’s shittiness is beyond doubt, but at least he didn’t go to war without Congress’s approval; if I’m not wrong the trend of “Military Operations Other Than War” started with Obama.
Just to get back to some of the other points from earlier:
From what I heard the military has only gotten more authoritarian as time went on
The military has gotten a lot more diverse since around the year 2008. Authoritarian-ness, in my limited knowledge about it, seems like it’s kind of waxed and waned as decades have come and gone. Maximum during the Spanish-American war, World War 2, War on Terror, and then at a a minimum during Vietnam, the Bonus Army time, the Ed Snowden / forever war days. It did reach a peak around the time of the War on Terror, which is why I thought it was weird that you singled out Obama in particular. I don’t think seeking congressional authorization or not really has the slightest bit to do with how individual ground troops or mid-level commanders are going to react to stuff when Posse Comitatus issues start to come to the fore as they seem moderately likely to in the near future. There are some other issues which I think will impact people’s thinking much more.
I’d wager modern Hugh Thompsons would either find the military insufferable and leave or would be eventually broken by the system like everyone else, which would explain why you used an example from Vietnam rather than a more recent one from the war on terror.
Eddie Gallagher was reported repeatedly by his fellow SEALs. The other frontline troops seemed to think it was a much bigger problem that he was committing war crimes than the brass did, although he was eventually court-martialled. It’s not really clear to me whether they fucked up the prosecution accidentally or on purpose, but regardless, he wasn’t really punished, but the other soldiers definitely seemed to think that he should be.
The massacre at Haditha seemed like it was generally approved of by everyone involved. As was Abu Ghraib. Like I say, I think early-2000s war on terror era was pretty much the recent peak for authoritarianism.
As a broader point, about getting broken by the system, I just don’t think it works that way. I think the main thing is, how awful of situations do you get put into (the right kind of trauma will trigger almost anyone to become a violent maniac), and how much ethics and trust seem like they’re on display from the people around you and above you. How hard does the darkness go, and how much light can you see to counterbalance. That’s my personal take on it. I feel like it’s a very individual thing. I do think that people can have individual reactions to wide societal issues: Are you sucked into the Trumpworld view where killing Democrats is okay because they support pedophilia and they tried to attack Trump who did nothing wrong? Are you horrified by watching ICE commit atrocities? Have you seen people you respect get pushed out of the brass by politics? That kind of thing. But I don’t think that any military with any type of training can really stamp out that individual level reaction. As far as I know, they actually try to lean into it when they do propaganda during training, motivating people to see the world as “enemies are threatening your family, that’s what you’re fighting for” “we’re your brothers you can trust us,” that kind of thing. Because they know that at the end of the day, people are doing to do what they decide to do. I think that’s why the authoritarian bent waxes and wanes, too, because events and perceptions shift over time, and the reaction of the soldiers goes with it.
I’m actually a little bit glad that they are dropping the pretense. ICE is sure as shit not law enforcement anymore.
The US army obeys the president (mostly), they’re not supposed to be involved in this. They are actually supposed to tell the president to get fucked if he tells them to.
The National Guard, on the other hand, obeys the applicable governor, and they are absolutely supposed to intervene for stuff like this. The system is actually designed with a good bit of sense in some respects. We might sort of be at the point where they should be involved, but definitely in the pretty near future, one of the better timelines involves the state cops and the National Guard putting up organized armed resistance to the escalations that ICE tries to do. I actually would really like to see the little squads of “I can’t show my face I snatch PhD students with asthma” tough guys in a conflict with either of those agencies. That carries that added benefit, also, that if we make it to the other side intact the people who gave ICE their orders can absolutely pay a price for having taken part in a rebellion against the United States.
No, this is going to be cops and other feds using a different charge code.
Where is the us army ?
Something something Posse Comitatus means that they are actually heroes for doing nothing about a violent uprising and you are a bastard for not supporting the troops in their hour of need. I hope you’ll think about your words and deeds while you get shipped off to a concentration camp.
Ice “troops”?
This is an invading army. Not the us army.
Where is the us army ? They are supposed to protect the country from this.
Too populated by MAGAts and indoctrinated to always follow orders. Yeah technically they’re not supposed to follow unconstitutional orders, but that ship sailed with Obama’s escapades in the Middle East.
In My Lai, Hugh Thompson landed his helicopter between US troops and Vietnamese civilians, and told his men to shoot the Americans if they tried to advance. No one questioned it. The US army tried to give him a medal for heroism in conflict with the enemy, part of their general cover-up, and he told them to get fucked. Eventually, they relented, halfway admitted that what he did was right, and gave him a medal for what he actually did. A lot of people at the time thought he was a traitor but he’s a free man now with his medal, and his name is in all the books. They court-martialled the commander most responsible for the massacre, although he didn’t really get punished.
The Vietnam Veterans Against the War did some of the most hard-hitting resistance to the war.
Everyone’s an individual. The US army is comprised of every color of the rainbow all the way from total MAGAs who want to kill Arabs and Democrats and are just waiting for someone to tell them to, all the way to whole platoons of Hugh Thompsons. It is fairly likely that a lot of how this all shakes out will come down to which faction becomes the consensus faction.
Edit: Oh, also, you’re showing your hand a little bit, saying that Obama was when the ship sailed. Not that he did much of anything to stop anything, he killed plenty of people, but there was one clear specific moment at which the ship sailed, and it wasn’t Obama.
I sincerely doubt it. From what I heard the military has only gotten more authoritarian as time went on, and the war on terror brought a massive paradigm shift in terms of American attitudes towards military action. I’d wager modern Hugh Thompsons would either find the military insufferable and leave or would be eventually broken by the system like everyone else, which would explain why you used an example from Vietnam rather than a more recent one from the war on terror.
I was talking about the military obeying the president as he clearly overstepped his constitutional authority. Bush’s shittiness is beyond doubt, but at least he didn’t go to war without Congress’s approval; if I’m not wrong the trend of “Military Operations Other Than War” started with Obama.
https://listverse.com/2017/05/28/top-10-unauthorized-us-wars/
Okay fair enough. I guess this ship sailed a long time ago.
Just to get back to some of the other points from earlier:
The military has gotten a lot more diverse since around the year 2008. Authoritarian-ness, in my limited knowledge about it, seems like it’s kind of waxed and waned as decades have come and gone. Maximum during the Spanish-American war, World War 2, War on Terror, and then at a a minimum during Vietnam, the Bonus Army time, the Ed Snowden / forever war days. It did reach a peak around the time of the War on Terror, which is why I thought it was weird that you singled out Obama in particular. I don’t think seeking congressional authorization or not really has the slightest bit to do with how individual ground troops or mid-level commanders are going to react to stuff when Posse Comitatus issues start to come to the fore as they seem moderately likely to in the near future. There are some other issues which I think will impact people’s thinking much more.
Eddie Gallagher was reported repeatedly by his fellow SEALs. The other frontline troops seemed to think it was a much bigger problem that he was committing war crimes than the brass did, although he was eventually court-martialled. It’s not really clear to me whether they fucked up the prosecution accidentally or on purpose, but regardless, he wasn’t really punished, but the other soldiers definitely seemed to think that he should be.
The massacre at Haditha seemed like it was generally approved of by everyone involved. As was Abu Ghraib. Like I say, I think early-2000s war on terror era was pretty much the recent peak for authoritarianism.
As a broader point, about getting broken by the system, I just don’t think it works that way. I think the main thing is, how awful of situations do you get put into (the right kind of trauma will trigger almost anyone to become a violent maniac), and how much ethics and trust seem like they’re on display from the people around you and above you. How hard does the darkness go, and how much light can you see to counterbalance. That’s my personal take on it. I feel like it’s a very individual thing. I do think that people can have individual reactions to wide societal issues: Are you sucked into the Trumpworld view where killing Democrats is okay because they support pedophilia and they tried to attack Trump who did nothing wrong? Are you horrified by watching ICE commit atrocities? Have you seen people you respect get pushed out of the brass by politics? That kind of thing. But I don’t think that any military with any type of training can really stamp out that individual level reaction. As far as I know, they actually try to lean into it when they do propaganda during training, motivating people to see the world as “enemies are threatening your family, that’s what you’re fighting for” “we’re your brothers you can trust us,” that kind of thing. Because they know that at the end of the day, people are doing to do what they decide to do. I think that’s why the authoritarian bent waxes and wanes, too, because events and perceptions shift over time, and the reaction of the soldiers goes with it.
For how long will that last?
Bro… 😢
That ship sailed with McKinley, tbh.
I’m actually a little bit glad that they are dropping the pretense. ICE is sure as shit not law enforcement anymore.
The US army obeys the president (mostly), they’re not supposed to be involved in this. They are actually supposed to tell the president to get fucked if he tells them to.
The National Guard, on the other hand, obeys the applicable governor, and they are absolutely supposed to intervene for stuff like this. The system is actually designed with a good bit of sense in some respects. We might sort of be at the point where they should be involved, but definitely in the pretty near future, one of the better timelines involves the state cops and the National Guard putting up organized armed resistance to the escalations that ICE tries to do. I actually would really like to see the little squads of “I can’t show my face I snatch PhD students with asthma” tough guys in a conflict with either of those agencies. That carries that added benefit, also, that if we make it to the other side intact the people who gave ICE their orders can absolutely pay a price for having taken part in a rebellion against the United States.
There are of course other timelines…
Unless the page has been edited, the term “troops” is one that Chris appears to have introduced. It is not present on the linked page.
No, this is going to be cops and other feds using a different charge code.
Something something Posse Comitatus means that they are actually heroes for doing nothing about a violent uprising and you are a bastard for not supporting the troops in their hour of need. I hope you’ll think about your words and deeds while you get shipped off to a concentration camp.