we did it joe :)

Max Miller does excellent work, so everybody just keep your shirts on. Please Max, don’t hurt me.

It’s a modern term (named after creationist Duane Gish) for an old-as-dirt oral debate tactic: spew as much bullshit, lies, half-truths and occasional facts as you can in order to bamboozle your audience, as well as put your debate opponent into a position of needing to debunk your nonsense rather than argue their own points.

When asked to criticize communism, liberals will simply describe capitalism.

What other modes of production are currently in use by existing nations?

“Communism works the same way, except the party leaders are the ones on top,” you think to yourself as the crimson Poverty Line flashes upwards across your field of view. “Capitalism is the only system that works.” The wind is rushing hard in your ears now; the bottom of the Money Pit is coming up fast. “Besides, they worked hard to swim in the Money Pool, they deser–.” Splat.

The little black piece at the top looks like a camera.

conditonal_soup is just another fascist who is either unwilling or unable to tell the difference between the violence of those who oppress and those who are oppressed. I’ve decided to just ignore them, and I’d recommend you do the same comrade.

A non-aggession pact that was necessary because the UK and France rejected a proposal by the Soviet Union to end the military threat of the Third Reich before it invaded Poland. But of course they rejected it, since the capitalist nations of Europe had spent years appeasing the Nazis, even signing their own pacts of neutrality and non-aggression with the Third Reich. Most of this is middle school history and you are failing.

1,000%. Liberals will say they abhor all violence, but then turn blind eyes to the violence that is necessary to maintain our (relatively) safe and comfortable lives in the imperial core. But when the oppressed commit violence against their oppressors, or a powerful force commits violence in behalf of the oppressed, suddenly liberals are shocked and aghast at the brutality of it all!

You walked yourself into the position of arguing against killing Nazis at concentration camps. Go home.

conditional_soup’s position on killing the guards, commanders and executioners of Nazi concentration camps: “No, you can’t do that, it makes you just as bad as them! You have to debate them in the marketplace of ideas while they exterminate millions of Jews, queers and other ‘undesirables.’”

They’re babies who want mommies and daddies to be in charge and make big decisions, even if those decisions are to commit genocide.

Please, elaborate.

Again, perfectly fair. Before I was a communist, I rejected Marxist concepts as well. I’ve spent over two decades reading and listening to arguments for and against all sort of political, social and economic ideas. I’ve identified with centrism, liberalism, libertarianism, social democracy and other ideologies. Today, I consider myself to be a Marxist/socialist/communist not because it’s just the latest thing I’ve hit upon, but because it’s what’s made the most sense to me. When I use Marxist words and ideas, I don’t do so because I’m a Marxist; I’m a Marxist because those words and ideas have helped me to make the most sense of the world. And I’m certainly not demanding, or even asking, you do become a Marxist, I’m just asking you to consider what makes the most sense.

Joseph Sisko’s restaurant is his personal property, not his private property since it is not a money-making venture. Since money, and capitalism, do not exist in the Federation, there is no private property in any form. Furthermore, given Star Trek’s egalitarian/utopian vision of the future, no one is going to take Joseph Sisko’s restaurant – the laws of the United Earth government (which has direct jurisdiction over Earth) exist (imo) to protect people’s personal property, not take it away.

Consider Joseph Sisko’s restaurant, Sisko’s Creole Kitchen. Joseph owns the restaurant, but he doesn’t sell anything. He provides goods and services, but he doesn’t make any money. Sisko’s Creole Kitchen is not a business, it is a labor of love that Joseph operates for himself and his community.

Additionally, the Federation is very socially liberal but it is not economically liberal. Economically, liberalism is a pro-capitalism ideology and capitalism has been abolished in the Federation.

Given this thread is about whether or not the Federation is a communist or socialist society, Marxist definitions are the most useful, eh? Furthermore, I’d argue that the term Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie very accurately describes American (I’m an American) society, and does so regardless of one’s personal beliefs.

From a Marxist perspective, all class-based societies are governed by dictatorships:

A dictatorship is the political dominance of one group of people over others. In a class society, a dictatorship usually favors the interest of certain classes over the others.

Right now, we live in the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie

The bourgeoisie is the ruling class in capitalist society; it owns the means of production and has a decisive influence on production. It lives off of surplus value which it obtains by exploiting the labour power of the proletariat.

Most sources on Roddenberry’s political beliefs are people who knew him, and they didn’t open up about those beliefs until after his death. Here’s an article that I’ve skimmed:

According to his last wife, Majel Barrett, he identified as a communist. But we know from the many accounts of his unethical business practices that he was also obsessed with making money. He preached peace and love but was infamously difficult to get along with. And he flew the flag for feminism while being a notorious womanizer.

Gene was a delightful man with great creativity and talent, but he was also a deeply flawed man who often failed to practice what he preached.