This demonstrates why open, federated, censorship resistant platforms are necessary for a healthy world wide population.
Love them or hate them, voices silenced are voices oppressed.
Yes it’s only a matter of time before Hasbara operatives try to suppress pro Palestinian voices on here. They’ve already taken over Reddit.
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I believe, wholeheartedly, that governments pay people to astroturf reddit.
They’ve gotten it down to a science at this point. Something I always notice now is people arguing against arguments that don’t exist. They’ll be like “I can’t believe people are saying x” when nobody is actually saying x.
It’s that kind of manufactured outrage, the kind that makes people feel like they’re missing out, that causes them to pretend to understand what’s going on in order to fit in.
It’s sad and disgusting, but I don’t even bother with reddit anymore. It’s too obvious that everyone there is either a shill or an idiot.
Lemmy appears to have gotten all the high-quality posters that reddit used to be good for.
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My oldest reddit acount was around 12-13 years old when I moved here and let me tell you the shifts over time were noticeable and constant especially in the world news sub. Honestly looked like it was someones goal to turn it into what it looks like now.
Honestly looked like it was someones goal to turn it into what it looks like now.
Ding ding ding. Moderators have only become less impartial as time went on with reddit.
A public modlog is absolutely necessary to hold mods accountable, which is why reddit doesn’t have one and none of the mods advocate for it.
Based on the drama around antiwork after the fox news spot I believe it. I’ve seen admins install mods into already moderated subreddits simply because they weren’t as reddit would like them, profitable.
I thought, it was just me thinking this/ noticing this. But majority of videos are posted by bots continuously and sometimes, it feels as if it is trying to stir up crap.
Reddit is quite useless in general nowadays. Only reason why I’m on it is for the specific subreddits (which are unfortunately not yet here).
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You can’t be pro-Palestine if you’re not anti-Hamas.
Remember, Netanyahu is pro-Hamas because he knows Hamas is bad for Palestinians.
Sadly this is turning into one of those “I support the troops, but I don’t support the war” moments. People just hear “pro-Palestinian people” and immediately think “omg, you support Hamas and terrorists!”
I dunno. This just seems like one of those stupid talking points that sounds clever on the surface but when you actually think about it, it’s dumb as hell.
Like, are you really stupid enough to believe Hamas would sabotage any legitimate chance of getting Jews out of Israel because they prefer Gazans to be oppressed? Nah. They’d rather be in control of Israel.
Unfortunately, the snowball effect has already taken hold, so those who can’t think for themselves will just parrot what you’re saying without second thought in order to fit in.
Duh. This censoring is why antisemitic conspiracy theories take hold in the first place. I understand moderation, but if you flag any discussion that goes against mainstream narrative as extremist, all that is left is an echo chamber. It’s right out of 1984 playbook. I am wondering how long before Lemmy will be called an antisemitic platform for even posting news like that?
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Yes
Case in point both Instagram and X have removed the account of @eyeonPalestine
Website for reference: https://www.eyeonpalestine.ps/eye-on/index.html
@eyeonpalestine was removed after showing signs of the account being compromised. NBC
These accounts were initially locked for security reasons after signs of compromise, and we’re working to make contact with the account owners to ensure they have access
Why not make it read-only until they make contact with the owners. Seems like an awfully convinient excuse otherwise.
Facebook are pretty upfront about the reasons for taking down accounts. It’s possible before they were detected they managed to upload some stuff that would get the account banned right away.
Oh, so some guy posts CP to Twitter, Twitter removes the post and reinstates the guy entirely … but it’s tooootally not suspicious when FB nukes an account from orbit for “signs” of being compromised…
Yea, no. I call BS.
X (formerly known as Twitter) is a different company than Facebook. They have different policies.
Facebook tend to be upfront about the reasons they removed an account. And they’ll ignore any and all evidence to the contrary after they’ve made that decision. There was a guy who hit the HN frontpage this week because he can’t advertise his online courses on Python and Pandas. Apparently they thought he was trying to sell live animals instead of teaching people how to do data science.
Twitter just does whatever Musk wants this week.
Way to miss the point. They’re pretending to be up front. The real reason is the censorship you’re so adamantly denying.
Perhaps you can calm down and wait for eyeonpalestine to actually publish a statement before jumping to conclusions?
Once you start making social media platforms legally liable for the contents of their users’ posts, this is what will always happen. E.g. this state of affairs appears to be the express purpose of Canadian law. I don’t know why anyone is surprised.
If you want free speech, you have to stop punishing the courier who delivers messages you don’t like.
I would have thought the answer to that was obvious? Of course they are.
@Ordoabchao @Mrkawfee not either
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The president has no business coordinating with social media on any issue.
Truth!
Social
The question before SCOTUS boils down to: “Is it against the First Amendment for the government to inform social media platforms that a post/account violates that platform’s TOS?”
The Biden administration is explicitly NOT ordering these platforms to take down posts, but reporting them to mods, like any other user can.
Pro-palestine posts are anti-semetic don’t you./s
Anyone else find it weird how it’s not okay to be anti-semetic, but it’s okay to be: anti-Chinese, anti-Russian, and anti-muslim?
Bigoted hypocrites seldom realize they’re bigoted or hypocrites. At least not in any meaningful way. There were a shitload of them before this attack. Why so surprised they all have the wrong opinion? It’s exactly what they always do: blame the victim.
These are the people that ask, “well what was she wearing?” after someone gets SA’d…
You can be anti war crimes without being anti semetic, or anti Russian, or anti China. You can be anti terrorist without being anti Muslim. You needn’t be a bigot.
It’s ok?
Yes, even encouraged.
What’s the opposite of Betteridge’s law
Worseflat’s law?
Egdiretteb’s law, obviously
Egdiretteb’s crime
Rhetorical Bait
Obviously censoring is bad, but which side is the
goodbetter guys?The civilians who are just trying to survive anyway they can.
And what if they’re killing other civilians in the process?
Then we should have open platforms to be able to discuss the issues. And not have a third party censoring it to push forward an agenda
And you’re looking at ad-pushers like google, facebook or tiktok to be these discussion platforms?
No, central control will always tens toward censorship. Open federated distributed platforms like Lemmy
I don’t get it, how can we be pro-palestinian ? They are sending hundreds of missile every year since like 2005. Israel could have just gone in and raze the place to the ground but they just waited for years. I don’t think the war is good by any means but damn, someone came into your home, killed your friends and family and you’re not supposed to do a thing about it ? What am I missing here ?
Like, would people be OK if we were protesting for alqaida right after 9/11 ? That’s just insensitive. I understand not all Palestinians are for the war but what is Israel supposed to do here ?
I don’t think the war is good by any means but damn, someone came into your home, killed your friends and family and you’re not supposed to do a thing about it ? What am I missing here ?
I think you just defined Palestinian position.
but they just waited for years
Israel destroys Gaza tower housing AP and Al Jazeera offices - 2021
Israel Bombs Hospital and UN Building - 2019
‘The world stands disgraced’ - Israeli shelling of school kills at least 15 - 2014
You can Google for “Israel bombs”, limit the results to whatever range of years you want, and you’ll find plenty of these. Throughout the years there’s been areas of Gaza that haven’t even had time to rebuild before they’re being bombed again. Searching for “UN condems Israel” is another great one. It’s almost funny how many times a country can be condemned for war crimes by the UN without any actual repercussions against that countries’ government, as long as they’re “allies”. Is this what you call “waiting for years”?
Israel has kept Palestinians in a concentration camp called Gaza since 2005. They control entry and exit in addition to electricity and water. Palestinians have been made refugees in their own country since 1948 and have watched white European settlers ethnically cleanse villages, raze farms and kill livestock while killing and imprisoning anyone who resisted. That’s not to mention the millions of refugees languishing abroad with no hope of return.
When I see comments like yours, I have to double take to see if it is an troll comment or not.
How can you not be for Palestinian people?
- They have been driven out of their land since 1948
- Been oppressed ever since being forced to leave their homeland
- Been murdered, ridiculed, victimized ever since then
- All country presidents seems to be okay with it
How can someone even be for Israel government with all this knowledge?
Certainly what Hamas did is wrong and I condemn it however if you are being oppressed for 70+ years, at one point, you’ll seriously lose it and fight back. Realize Hamas was made in 1987 to fight for Palestinian lives, if Israel didn’t just steal land, oppress Palestinian people and keep doing that for so long - Hamas might not even have existed.
What Hamas did on 7 October, Israel have been doing that for decades upon decades to the Palestinian people and no one cared. Now it’s a country with lots of money, artillery and such - everyone cares all of a ‘sudden’.
It’s always good when people demonstrate their lack of knowledge on the subject.
Your oversimplification of the history of the region, and history while presenting it like a proud child holding a mud pie is core to the disagreements here.
You ignore all the Palestinian Jews who were there even when the Ottoman Empire ruled the area. Trying to pretend it was some homogenous Arab eutopia with no Jews living there.
You ignore the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Jews who received the same treatment from all the Arab countries who had their land stolen.
That doesn’t make Israeli theft of land okay or legitimate. It’s a crime. But when you’re ignorant to or refuse to acknowledge that the Jews got the same treatment, it does speak to your bias or ignorance of the history–either way.
Being oppressed is pretty much the history of the Jewish diaspora, whether you are looking at Russian and Slavic pogroms, inquisition, holocaust, etc. If you have sympathy for a people who have endured it but not for the jews then I question the sincerity of your sympathy.
Israelis and Jews have been murdered, ridiculed, and victimized as well. Often, with the pro-hamas crowd, you will find the “but but it’s disproportionate,” demonstrating their rational for not caring about this as a principal but only as an Anti-Israel talking point. Who killed more isn’t a principled argument, it’s a talking point for an agenda.
It’s horrible and wrong when the world and the Israelis do it to Palestian Arabs, and it’s wrong when done to Israelis. The difference is that a decent person condemns it all on principal, not selectively uses it as a way to be anti-israeli or anti-jewish.
And yes, the world believes that Israel has a right to exist. Most of the radical left on Lemmy does not. That’s part of why the world response confused them. Most nations feel that after you suffer a horrific terrorist attack and war crimes that you have a right to defend yourself.
Instead, the pro-Hamas crowd on here spends their time trying to deny the atrocities of Hamas, Iran, and Hezbollah on the 7th. They act like the current escalation is unprovoked and throw out qanaon like conspiracies as to why none of it happened.
When Israel is doing right now, it is a war crime. Let’s be really clear. And they’ve been committing them for way longer than this conflict. Collective punishment of civilians IS A WAR CRIME, not just now but months ago, years ago, etc. Their government officials should be tried at the ICC for these crimes.
War crimes from one side are not a defense for committing war crimes. And when you frame something like “I condemn hamas… BUT”, or “Hamas should have murdered all those civilians, HOWEVER”, that is exactly what people are doing. Just look at your own lengthy, I condem the 7th followed by a long apologists explanation as to why Israel deserved it. Nobody deserved that. It’s easy, you can say that and still be for the Palestinian civilians having homes and land and human dignity and freedom from Israel’s crimes.
Your explanation of Hamas’ origins is also either an outright fabrication or just ignorance. They came to power, really came to power by working with Bibi who was trying to unseat Perez. A two state solution looked very likely, and Perez and Arafat could have made it happen. Perez was in the lead, and Israel was still backing two states.
At that time, Hamas waged a campaign of suicide bombings and bombed buses full of civilians. This delivered a less than 1% victory margin to Bibi, who would have lost otherwise. Arafat helped Hamas by not cracking down on them as Israel was asking (bc it was politically unpopular with the Palestinians), and inadvertently helped them get rid of Perez, two state, and ironically himself from leadership. Bibi exists because Hamas wanted him there.
Hamas and Bibis partnership is specifically why there’s no two states now and will likely never be after the 7th.
At the time of the election, Israel had pulled out of many territories and granted autonomy to them, they had their own government and armed police forces and more. Those police forces ended up using their armaments against Israelis. It was going better than it had in a long time.
And all the while, I might add that the radical Israeli settlers were working towards Hamas’ goals as well. A filthy radical assassinated Rabin, had he not a two state would definitely have happened and happened even faster. Perez carried on.
Some of the use of Palestinian forces in the autonomus territories was intentionally provoked by Israeli settlers. Just like Israel has a right to defend itself, so did the Palestinians when radical settlers provoked them.
I could go on and explain more, but this is just going to get downvoted to hell by the pro hamas crowd and anti semites on here. And that’s the closing point.
The use of the excuse that “people will call me anti-semtic if I’m anti-semtic on here” is crazy. Radical left is happily shielding anti-semites the same way Hamas uses civilians as a shield. They’re in their midst, and considering world persecution and prevalence of anti-semitism it isn’t unreasonable to question. To counter it, you can do things like say Oct 7th was a terrorist attack, war crimes, and crimes against humanity, nothing justifies it. That should help clarify if you’re a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Be loudly vocally against Hamas and dont apologize for them by pretending they were for saving Palestian lives. That’s not what they were for ever.
I’ll show you by ending with: Israel’s apartheid is war crimes and crimes against humanity. The current and previous blockades of Gaza are war crimes. There’s never an excuse for war crimes. Israel’s willingness to incur civilian casualties is war crimes. Nothing justifies it, ever.
I’m not pro Israel or pro Hamas, but I am anti-war crimes on principal. It’s why I happily soak up the downvotes all the time from the pro-Hamas crowd on here.
It’s why I happily soak up the downvotes all the time from the pro-Hamas crowd on here.
The second part of this sentence is likely why you’re downvoted. The whole “everyone who disagress with me is pro-Hamas / anti-semitic” is tiring, disingenuous, shoves aside any possible good faith discussion, and I’d argue it’s actually destructive as it muddies the definition of these terms. Anti-semite specifically is a term I don’t think people should be throwing around willy nilly, but by this point, 99% of the time I see it used in online discourse it describes someone who doesn’t think mass civilian bombings are OK, and maybe 1% actual anti-semites. It’s basically the right wing version of some “leftists” calling people fascists for having the slightest right of center opinion.
I usually either scroll past any mention of these or downvote and move on because it’s too tiring to devote time to people who, most of the time, are arguing in bad faith.
I appreciate your reply very much. We disagree, but I understand what you’re saying and certainly admit it is debatable.
I don’t think anybody who disagrees with me is pro-Hamas at all. And I definitely think Anti-Israeli government stances are legitimate. I think Bibi and many in his government are war criminals.
But there’s certainly many here on Lemmy who are anti-Jew and anti-Israeli and who always reply to Hamas’s crimes, either with whataboutisms, lies, or strawman, etc. Their comment histories are usually pretty clear. I regularly see calls for Israel’s destruction and decrying its right to exist on the world politics group. It’s accepted and welcomed there.
I appreciate you not just scrolling by and explaining earnestly and with good faith. And FWIW, I like your version lots better, but it’s just not my personal experience here in the Lemmy community.
Also, there’s a serious instant knee jerk to claim that any criticism or disagreement of pro-hamas propaganda is “playing the antisemitism card”. Yes, I think Bibi lovers do it in bad faith, but I see lots of actual antisemtic comments and discourse that do deserve the label. And all of ut is decried as pro-israeli proaganda, in very bad faith.
One of the issues rhe hypersensitivity brings is actual antisemites hide behind radicalized lefties like hamas hides behind civilians. And lack of acknowledging who they’re in bed with or lack of awareness of it is dangerous and at times duplicitous.
Again, thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I get what you mean. My pet peeve is more with “real life” people. I don’t spend that much time on Lemmy anymore because, well, in a lot of ways it’s a lot like the worst parts of Reddit. And, in general, I’ve started to notice that “internet opinions” hardly ever represent what I see when I talk to real life people. So I tend to not care much about anything coming out of Lemmy, Reddit, Twitter, etc, as I find it’s often the loud very tiny minority.
But I have the habit of reading opinion pieces on a couple of national newspapers, and I’ve noticed the “you’re an anti-semite if you disagree with me” pattern a lot. Most opinion pieces by usually left leaning political writers have been more level headed than I actually expected them to be - in the sense that there’s a couple of them who usually hold far more extreme positions on pretty much everything else and have been surprisingly “center” on this issue. Whereas on the right, a few people who I would say are usually fairly moderate and level headed have gone hard on the “the left actually hates jews, they don’t care about civilians” trope. And it’s very confusing to me because I have yet to find any actual left leaning person who’s any relevant in my country’s political scene actively sharing that discourse. So it all feels like baseless deflection. It was the kind of behavior I expected out of Reddit - it’s been the case for years I feel that in most bigger subreddits any critique of Israel’s government would immediately make you an honorary anti-semite. Though that seems to have changed a bit after we entered the “Bibi is trying to turn Israel into a dictatorship” arc and he’s not seen as the savior of Israel anymore. But it weirds me out to see these talking points coming out of real life political commentators who I would usually expect to be at least somewhat level headed. In general, with exceptions from the usual crazies and outside places like Twitter, I have yet to find the big leftist pro-Hamas discourse everyone seems to pretend is all around.
Lemmy in 1993:
I don’t get it, how can we be pro-Irland ? They are sending hundreds of bombs every year since like 1968. The UK could have just gone in and raze the place to the ground but they just waited for years. I don’t think the war is good by any means but damn, someone came into your home, killed your friends and family and you’re not supposed to do a thing about it ? What am I missing here ?
I understand not all irish are for the war but what is the UKl supposed to do here ?
If you’re saying crimes by some members of a population, condemn the entire population. That’s going to be a rough sell, is every citizen in Mexico responsible for the drug trafficker activity? Can we just start bombing Mexico, saying any collateral damages the responsibility of the drug traffickers?
When looking at the power dynamics of a situation you have to look at who has more capabilities. In an apartheid situation where one population has unequal access to power, weapons, civic services, infrastructure, energy, water, human rights… you have to look at what is the systemic cause for the violence not just who’s committing the violence.
When slaves rebel, it’s usually very bloody, and lots of non-slave owners get killed. The solution to that is not we’re going to triple down on slavery, it’s oh slavery is a terrible situation that causes lots of violence but it’s very nature.
The fun thing is none of us have a direct hand in resolving the conflict, but we can identify the systemic issues that are causing the cyclic violence. So if a terrible thing happens, and then people respond with another terrible thing, and then people respond to that with another terrible thing, it’s the classic eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
So let’s just think logically through these scenarios, either you have to come to peace with the oppressed population, deal with them fairly to end the violence… Or you have to kill every single one of them so that it doesn’t matter that they were being oppressed.
You’re conflating Palestinian with Hamas. Hamas is an extremist group within the Palestinian population and no one in sane mind is on their side.
I don’t think the war is good by any means but damn, someone came into your home, killed your friends and family and you’re not supposed to do a thing about it ? What am I missing here ?
You’re certainly not supposed to go to the murderer’s neighborhood and kill everyone that lives there just because that’s where the culprit lives.
I understand not all Palestinians are for the war but what is Israel supposed to do here ?
Not indiscriminately kill civilians? Especially ones trying to cross the border for refuge or fleeing from bombardment? I’m not going to pretend it’s an easy situation, but the way they’ve been behaving the last couple of weeks almost seems purposely malicious, especially after that deranged speech at the UN council.
Thousands of missles. Since Hamas’s invasion, they launched over 5000 rockets. That figure was from the first week.
Sure but that’s war. I don’t think they sent rocket before they declared war no ?
Hamas fires rockets all the time. In fact they did fire plenty of rockets right before and during their terrorist attack in Israel.
