• turtlesareneat@discuss.online
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    2 hours ago

    This is interesting. I’ve been setting up our non-profit’s new grant-funded Azure VM, then Wordpress site, then CiviCRM, then hardening it all, and I’m hoping to offer this as a (volunteer) turnkey service to a few other nonprofits in town. And it’s amazing to me how many hours this still takes, and how out of reach it is for the average nonprofit.

  • AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net
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    17 hours ago

    I didn’t finish this article because I’m procrastinating before a minor deadline, but I read enough to realise that my prior bias against no-code software was excessively strong and largely based in gatekeepy ideals; I am a weirdo who loves to tinker, and I earnestly believe that many of the people who don’t consider themselves techy could find joy in this path if not for platform capitalism, bullshit laws around software, and IT education that creates a class of obedient users.

    However, it’s unrealistic to hope that it’s possible to “convert” everyone to this path, or even the majority of people. It’s useful to remind myself that my goal of facilitating more tinkerers and builders in the world is that I think that’s a route towards greater empowerment and freedom in interfacing with our tech-heavy world, and that the template that feels most natural to me is not the only route to tech empowerment

  • hperrin@lemmy.ca
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    20 hours ago

    “No-code software”, aka, CMS.

    Why do we need a new term that is vastly worse than the old term?

    • chobeat@lemmy.mlOP
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      20 hours ago

      A CMS is a specific type of no-code software. N8N or Appsmith are definitely not a CMS

      • hperrin@lemmy.ca
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        20 hours ago

        Can you define no-code software?

        From the article:

        You have a program, WordPress, to create more software, namely your specific website. It is more than a bunch of options to select, but it doesn’t really require coding for most things.

        So… is it just software that has a plugin architecture?

        • chobeat@lemmy.mlOP
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          20 hours ago

          You’re focusing too much on the WordPress example. There are a dozen tools mentioned in the article that will clarify what’s possible.

          • hperrin@lemmy.ca
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            20 hours ago

            I don’t see what these things have in common other than just being software tools, generally for managing content. And I really don’t understand the term “no-code software”. It’s all built with code. If I use an operating system to run a program, that doesn’t mean I’ve invented some sort of new software system, that’s just what they’re designed to do. Using a tool in a way that it’s designed to be used isn’t really novel.

            • iglou@programming.dev
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              2 hours ago

              “no-code” software is a very specific category of software that aims to enable users to build something that usually is built by a dev, without needing one.

              And while “no-code” can be a weird name, it makes sense when you read the definition I just gave. Just like “serverless” does not mean there is no server involved (obviously), but simply means you don’t even need to think about the server part.

            • Luke@lemmy.ml
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              19 hours ago

              On the off chance you aren’t being intentionally obtuse to troll:

              No-code is a term that refers to the perspective of the end user. Of course it is built using code, that’s not the point. The person ultimately using it doesn’t need to use any code to construct whatever the tool is enabling (automatons, websites, etc), which massively increases the target demographic who can use the tool.

              • hperrin@lemmy.ca
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                11 hours ago

                Yes, I get the intention of the term. I don’t understand why it exists. It’s unnecessary. Most software is designed to not require you to write code to use it.

                • Luke@lemmy.ml
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                  8 hours ago

                  Hmm okay, that’s true. I guess there’s another aspect missing from my description above then: no-code is for doing tasks in ways that resemble how you’d do them with code, but without directly using code.

                  Think about the nodes in Blender or Node-RED, or the blocks in visual scripting for kids to learn. It’s using the same concepts of code, but with varying amounts of abstraction depending on which example we look at.

                  WordPress is a CMS, that’s true, and is usually how it’s described. Specifically, though, the block editor is what I assume the OP was referring to as no-code. That part of WordPress is abstracted more than a tree of nodes in Blender, but they’re both examples of an effort by those softwares to make doing those tasks more approachable to users.

                  Inkscape could probably also be described as no-code if you squinted hard enough, since it’s letting you manipulate SVG tags directly without needing to open a text editor and know the SVG spec.

            • Joël de Bruijn@lemmy.ml
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              19 hours ago

              Naming things is hard. But if you have a better category name to distinguish from classic cms software I am all ears.

              And yes no-code software itself is written with code.

              But I dont mind having a name for software in which

              • you can add and manage workflows
              • you can define tables/data/attributes and views
              • that are not scoped to specific use cases up front
              • query and scripts are abstracted away by a friendy UI
              • hperrin@lemmy.ca
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                11 hours ago

                It is classic CMS software. Wordpress is listed. That’s an CMS. And what you listed doesn’t fit all the things called no-code in the article.

                Maybe this would be easier. Can you name some software that isn’t no-code software and tell me why? (I mean, obviously other than software you use to write code.)

                • chaos@beehaw.org
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                  3 hours ago

                  My characterization would be that there’s a spectrum here:

                  • 100% yes code: compilers, IDEs, scripting environments, databases, you wanna get something done, you are going to be specifying it in something that at the very least looks like traditional source code.
                  • Completely on the other side of the spectrum, traditional consumer-oriented software: word processor, web browser, accounting/bookkeeping (not spreadsheets though, we’ll get to those), photo/video/audio editor, maps, music player, etc.

                  That first side of the spectrum is pretty easy to pin down. It has little to no metaphor or abstraction, and the pointy tip of this side is no metaphor at all, just writing machine code and piping it directly into the CPU. A higher level language will let you gloss over some details like registers, memory management, multithreading, maybe pretend you’re manipulating little objects or mathematical functions instead of bits on a wire, but overall you are directing the computer to do computer things using computer language, and forced to think like a computer and learn what computers can and cannot do. This is, of course, the most powerful way to use a computer but is also completely inaccessible to almost everybody.

                  The second, I’d link together as all being software with a metaphor that is not particularly related to computing itself, but to something more real world. People edited music by physically splicing tapes together, an audio editor does an idealized version of that. Typewriters existed, and a word processor basically simulates that experience. Winamp wasn’t much more than a boom box and a sleeve of CDs. There is usually a deliberate physicality and real-world grounding to the user’s mental model of the software, even if it is doing things that would be impossible if the metaphor were literal. You don’t need to use code, but you also don’t get anything code-like out of it.

                  No-code is in between. It’s intended for a similar audience as the latter category, who want a clear, easy-to-understand mental model that doesn’t require a computer science degree, but it tries to enable that audience to perform code-like tasks. Spreadsheets are the original example of this; although they originate as a metaphor for paper balance sheets, the functions available in formulas fundamentally alter the metaphor to basically “imagine if you had a sheet of paper that could do literal magic” and at that point you’re basically just describing a computer with a screen. Everything in a spreadsheet is very tactile, it’s easy to see where your data is, but when you need to, you can dip into a light programming environment that regular people can still make work. In general, this is the differentiator for “no code” apps: enabling non-coders to dip their toes into modifying program behavior, scripting tasks, and building software. They’re limited to what the tool provides, but the tool is trying to give them the power that actual coding would provide.

                  I’d never thought of WordPress as low-code, but I think that fits. Websites go beyond paper or magazines, and WordPress allows people to do things that would otherwise require code and databases and web servers and so on.

          • hperrin@lemmy.ca
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            20 hours ago

            So basically anything that’s extensible or customizable?

            • Joël de Bruijn@lemmy.ml
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              18 hours ago

              No-code goes further then the “configuration” level and its features are very generic, to make endless use cases possible.

              • hperrin@lemmy.ca
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                11 hours ago

                It’s a meaningless term then. Is Apache “no-code software”? What about Windows?

  • BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world
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    20 hours ago

    I’m on the yunohost wagon for almost 4 years, I’m really happy and I could cut a lot of big tech off my digital life

  • MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip
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    17 hours ago

    You have a program, WordPress, to create more software, namely your specific website.

    Bad example. Wordpress is to create blogs, not webpages. If you use it for anything more, you end up with one of the weekly critical security holes in plugins.