I suspect it’s a cultural thing, though. I’m British, but I know America has a very aggressive evangelical base. There are mega-churches and politicians and sports people are always talking about God and Jesus and we just don’t have that over here.
On the other hand, a few atheists I know have tried to “convert” me before.
I’m guessing it’s a certainty thing. From what I’ve seen of the American churches, some of them are absolutely borderline cults. So of course the folk are certain that they’re right.
And there’s certainly enough ammunition in religion as a whole for anyone who hates religion to think that they’re right.
It always starts from the assumption that I’m an atheist too. They’re all friends, by the way, so don’t picture some kind of weird high-pressure pitches on the street.
Also I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to conflate being atheist and being anti-religious - my friend in this story however is in the “religion is ultimately the cause of every war in history” camp.
Anyway, very basically, I’d done something nice. Another work friend was talking about it, and my anti-religion friend responded with “see, he’s an objectively nice person, no religion needed or anything”. And it was at this point I revealed my secret identity, and the discussion began.
Just for balance, over my 44 years, I’ve also had a Scientology pitch, a Jehovah’s Witnesses pitch (old-school knocking on the door style), and an uncomfortably high-pressure pitch from what I’m sure was one of those churches set up to scam immigrants.
But outside of those, the main people who have tried to change me have been friends with strong anti-religious views.
Ah, yes, well. Many people see the root of all evil not in money, but in organized religion, and that’s sometimes hard to emotionally separate from the (perceived) irrationality of capital-R religion. So, yeah: in friend groups, I can see debates about religion that veer into proselytizing, although – again – people generally don’t preach to the already-converted except in sectarian wars, which in the US have subsided as religious communities have solidified against the greater threat of atheism.
I grant, in any case, that even atheism can have strong advocates who try to convert people. I do think that it depends on who you are: being an athiest, I’ve never had an athiest pressure me about my religious beliefs, and have only been prosthelytized to by Christians… but that’s to be expected, right?
I live in the US and in real life Ive had far more atheists be assholes about religion. That said, Christians are in power, so they likely dont feel the need to be so loud.
Hmm. I’m going to go ahead and assume this is a bad-faith comment. Despite that, I’ll try to help.
I’m guessing from the phrasing that you’re not aware, but if you’re trying to change someone’s belief system, it’s called conversion.
I appreciate that you were probably trying to do the “atheism isn’t a belief, it’s a lack of a belief” thing, but unfortunately that’s how the language works in this case.
Nope. They’re right. Conversation has a destination. Pointing out the flaws in YOUR beliefs isn’t telling you where to end up, only where to leave from.
Ah, but atheism isn’t a belief system, it’s the absence of one.
Yes I know, I’m not asserting that atheism is a belief system or a religion or anything like that
But you used the word conversion, as if it was a religion
Yes because you’re trying to change my beliefs and win me over to your way of thinking. Conversion is the correct word.
But atheism is the default human position, so you can’t convert to it
Humans are social creatures. World views, philosophies and beliefs are cultural, not biological. Atheism is no more the default position than English is the default language. Whatever you start off with, that’s your default position.
I’m sorry for putting words in your mouth here, and I hope I haven’t put up a strawman argument, but like I said - conversion really is the correct word.
I realise I mightn’t have won you over, and that’s fine, but this is a mad thing to get hung up on.
BTW, I do appreciate you doing the legwork and actually digging out the definition.
That is a) not how the language works and b) an atheist would never try to convince anyone about anything religious. Aka: convert. Because that would mean for him Atheism is a religion, which it is not.
I am an Atheist. My inner self is convinced: there are not gods. And that is it. I do not try to make you go away from your god. And I myself: have no god. There is no church or cult of Atheism. there is no organization (perhaps in weird countries there are, who knows?), there is no path to follow, there is no morning or evening or any other ritual, there are no prayers, there is most certainly no evangelism towards Atheism.
Nice deflection, bro. But my point was exactly that. You cannot “convert” someone to atheism. That would imply atheism is a belief, rather than the lack thereof. So my question stands.
Sorry, but it’s true. I’m afraid you’re going to have to take it up with a higher authority than me (i.e. the dictionary people) if you want to change how the word is used.
It’s the word for changing someone’s belief system not, as you seem to think, giving someone a new belief system.
Sorry, but I’m correct here.
Also, here’s additional lesson for you - you started your reply admitting that the question was asked in bad faith, that I did spot what you were talking about, and that you do know that I’m talking about atheism. Then you finish with “so my question stands”.
No it doesn’t. You understood fully what I was talking about in both the post you replied to and my response. So it doesn’t stand - you already knew the answer.
Look, I don’t mind you having a crack at being Mr I’m-Very-Clever-Catch-You-Out-On-Word-Meanings, but at least do it well.
You asked what I meant by my sentence and I clarified it.
For example, I personally find the idea of transubstantiation weird. To my mind, that does not provide evidence that all religion is wrong, just that maybe strict Catholicism maybe isn’t for me.
My experience has been the exact opposite!
I suspect it’s a cultural thing, though. I’m British, but I know America has a very aggressive evangelical base. There are mega-churches and politicians and sports people are always talking about God and Jesus and we just don’t have that over here.
On the other hand, a few atheists I know have tried to “convert” me before.
I’m guessing it’s a certainty thing. From what I’ve seen of the American churches, some of them are absolutely borderline cults. So of course the folk are certain that they’re right.
And there’s certainly enough ammunition in religion as a whole for anyone who hates religion to think that they’re right.
Someone brought up religion, or god. Is it the athiests?
I will absolutely push back if something brings up religion.
It would be silly if a Christian tried to convert you, an already converted Christian. Maybe there’s some confirmation bias at work?
It always starts from the assumption that I’m an atheist too. They’re all friends, by the way, so don’t picture some kind of weird high-pressure pitches on the street.
Also I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to conflate being atheist and being anti-religious - my friend in this story however is in the “religion is ultimately the cause of every war in history” camp.
Anyway, very basically, I’d done something nice. Another work friend was talking about it, and my anti-religion friend responded with “see, he’s an objectively nice person, no religion needed or anything”. And it was at this point I revealed my secret identity, and the discussion began.
Just for balance, over my 44 years, I’ve also had a Scientology pitch, a Jehovah’s Witnesses pitch (old-school knocking on the door style), and an uncomfortably high-pressure pitch from what I’m sure was one of those churches set up to scam immigrants.
But outside of those, the main people who have tried to change me have been friends with strong anti-religious views.
Ah, yes, well. Many people see the root of all evil not in money, but in organized religion, and that’s sometimes hard to emotionally separate from the (perceived) irrationality of capital-R religion. So, yeah: in friend groups, I can see debates about religion that veer into proselytizing, although – again – people generally don’t preach to the already-converted except in sectarian wars, which in the US have subsided as religious communities have solidified against the greater threat of atheism.
I grant, in any case, that even atheism can have strong advocates who try to convert people. I do think that it depends on who you are: being an athiest, I’ve never had an athiest pressure me about my religious beliefs, and have only been prosthelytized to by Christians… but that’s to be expected, right?
I live in the US and in real life Ive had far more atheists be assholes about religion. That said, Christians are in power, so they likely dont feel the need to be so loud.
The Christian belief is as trivially obviously fake as Zeus and has done a lot of harm
No shit.
Most of the planet suffers from some type of this mental illness and it threatens our survival as a species
Are you literally just a bot? begone.
What did the atheists try to “convert” you to?
Hmm. I’m going to go ahead and assume this is a bad-faith comment. Despite that, I’ll try to help.
I’m guessing from the phrasing that you’re not aware, but if you’re trying to change someone’s belief system, it’s called conversion.
I appreciate that you were probably trying to do the “atheism isn’t a belief, it’s a lack of a belief” thing, but unfortunately that’s how the language works in this case.
Nope. They’re right. Conversation has a destination. Pointing out the flaws in YOUR beliefs isn’t telling you where to end up, only where to leave from.
That’s just deprogramming.
I get what you’re saying, but you’re wrong. I’ve used the word correctly. Genuinely, look it up.
You did not. Notice how every example has a direction associated with it
con·ver·sion kən-ˈvər-zhən -shən Synonyms of conversion 1: the act of converting : the process of being converted
2: an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion
3a: the operation of finding a converse in logic or mathematics
b: reduction of a mathematical expression by clearing of fractions
4: a successful attempt for a point or points especially after a touchdown or for a first down
5: something converted from one use to another
6: gene conversion
Examples of conversion in a Sentence
The company is undergoing a **conversion to ** a new computer system.
They have suggested conversion of the old school into apartments.
Conversion to gas heating will continue over the next few years.
a conversion from Catholicism to Judaism
He is thinking about conversion to Buddhism.
OK, let’s go through the motions.
“Conversion to atheism”
Ah, but atheism isn’t a belief system, it’s the absence of one.
Yes I know, I’m not asserting that atheism is a belief system or a religion or anything like that
But you used the word conversion, as if it was a religion
Yes because you’re trying to change my beliefs and win me over to your way of thinking. Conversion is the correct word.
But atheism is the default human position, so you can’t convert to it
Humans are social creatures. World views, philosophies and beliefs are cultural, not biological. Atheism is no more the default position than English is the default language. Whatever you start off with, that’s your default position.
I’m sorry for putting words in your mouth here, and I hope I haven’t put up a strawman argument, but like I said - conversion really is the correct word.
I realise I mightn’t have won you over, and that’s fine, but this is a mad thing to get hung up on.
BTW, I do appreciate you doing the legwork and actually digging out the definition.
That is a) not how the language works and b) an atheist would never try to convince anyone about anything religious. Aka: convert. Because that would mean for him Atheism is a religion, which it is not. I am an Atheist. My inner self is convinced: there are not gods. And that is it. I do not try to make you go away from your god. And I myself: have no god. There is no church or cult of Atheism. there is no organization (perhaps in weird countries there are, who knows?), there is no path to follow, there is no morning or evening or any other ritual, there are no prayers, there is most certainly no evangelism towards Atheism.
Nice deflection, bro. But my point was exactly that. You cannot “convert” someone to atheism. That would imply atheism is a belief, rather than the lack thereof. So my question stands.
It’s obvious that they meant convince them to stop believing in any faith. You are trying to twist words when nobody is even slightly confused.
Sorry, but it’s true. I’m afraid you’re going to have to take it up with a higher authority than me (i.e. the dictionary people) if you want to change how the word is used.
It’s the word for changing someone’s belief system not, as you seem to think, giving someone a new belief system.
Sorry, but I’m correct here.
Also, here’s additional lesson for you - you started your reply admitting that the question was asked in bad faith, that I did spot what you were talking about, and that you do know that I’m talking about atheism. Then you finish with “so my question stands”.
No it doesn’t. You understood fully what I was talking about in both the post you replied to and my response. So it doesn’t stand - you already knew the answer.
Look, I don’t mind you having a crack at being Mr I’m-Very-Clever-Catch-You-Out-On-Word-Meanings, but at least do it well.
“there’s certainly enough ammunition in religion as a whole for anyone who hates religion to think that they’re right.”
Is a crazy way to phrase “there is evidence that supports their views”
Not really. It’s an observation that most religions have some dogmatic and scriptural aspects that can be seen as either absurd or abhorrent.
Most large religions have been co-opted at some point in history by powerful people to do some terrible things.
If you were anti-religion, there’s a lot of things to take shots at.
Explain how what i said was wrong? I understand you disagree, but none of the rest of your comment explains why.
You asked what I meant by my sentence and I clarified it.
For example, I personally find the idea of transubstantiation weird. To my mind, that does not provide evidence that all religion is wrong, just that maybe strict Catholicism maybe isn’t for me.
I did not ask what you meant in your sentence.
I do live in the Bible belt.