They don’t want to admit it but they are just a few steps away from anarchy.
Soo the, we got problems to big for one person alone to solve. If we let every fucker do whatever he wants we going down fast. We need inteligente population orientated to something good, organizerd trough democracy.
bUt i wANt mY GuNS AnD My moNEY.
They say while driving in public rodes with protection from a government that doesn’t let companies poison their air, a gov that replaces the lead pipes, that conducts international policies needed for the survival of any contry…
The way Libertarians claim, in the broad sense, they are literally the same as anarchists.
However, most of the time when you get into the details, they just want the government to protect them doing whatever they want and oppress others. They’re literally the same as conservatives.
Poisoning the air or water is against the non-aggression principle of libertarianism. People who are okay with harming others are not libertarians, they are just LARPing Republicans.
Public roads is a difference of opinion. If there were private toll roads everywhere with a wireless chip for payment (to fund upkeep of the road) I would not be against that. The government has toll roads as well so I had to get the wireless chip anyway in California since I don’t have exact change on me every time I drive on a bridge. If his higher cost of roads went to keeping them in better order and discouraged people from driving, that would be actually a benefit.
You have every right to your opinion, and you’re welcome to ignore me, but I really don’t understand where you’re coming from on that. I can think of so many issues with having a privatized road system. Just off the top of my head,
How do these companies get the land? Every libertarian I’ve asked this of has gone on about how the railroads didn’t need government help to get their land, which is provably false (sources 1,2,3). So given that the land is taken by the government then given or sold to the railroads, (or in our case roads) the government is still in the position of forcing the trade and choosing which companies get it.
Then we get to the topic of necessary monopoly. If we don’t have a monopoly in charge of a large chunk of land, turning right will cost you an extra $10 as opposed to going straight. For that matter going straight more than 5 miles may cost you an extra $10. (I’m hoping this is uncontroversial enough to not require a source). This is the reason that we have utilities (of which private roads are - at least in my state- already one (source 4)), but this means that the government gets to say how much they’re allowed to charge (source 5). If they don’t place this regulation, people that live at one end of a private road and work at the other will be required to pay extortionist prices, because there can only be so many roads to get from point a to b. If we do keep those requirements then this is no longer a benefit of using private roads.
Then there’s the price difference for the consumer. This one requires some pre-amble.
New Jersey has a population of 9.288 million
Michigan has a population of 10.077 million
(both source 6)
Michigan roads are funded primarily through a (shockingly high) gas tax of 19c/gal (7). (It’s largely so high because the wild temperature varrations damage the roads.) The average American uses 489 gal/year (8) for a total average tax of $92.91/year.
The average new Jersey resident pays very little in gas tax, but they do pay for tolls. I can’t find an average, but last year the state got ~2 billion (9) in tolls divided by the total number of residents from earlier we can roughly estimate they paid 215.33/year. (This fails to take into account visitors, but in the reverse direction it also fails to account for children and those not driving)
This is in a toll system that, unlike a private one, does not need to turn a profit. To your point on road maintenance being better for toll roads - according to Consumer Affairs NJ is raked 27th in the country for it, while Michigan is 20th (10). US news has NJ at 40, and Michigan at 30 (11).
In the end of the day, it seems to me that people will pay more to drive, and the government will still have such a high level of control of the road system that any benefit that could be found in privatization is lost.
They don’t want to admit it but they are just a few steps away from anarchy.
Pretty much everyone admits it. Minarchist (pro minimal govt) flag is literally ancap with black changed to blue.
Soo the, we got problems to big for one person alone to solve. If we let every fucker do whatever he wants we going down fast. We need inteligente population orientated to something good, organizerd trough democracy.
Free Market is essentially a “continuous democratic process”. If what somebody does benefit people, he gets incentivised with profits. If people see no value in what he’s doing – he gets losses. And if in the process of " doing whatever he wants" he does any harm to others ge gets sued.
And all of this happens constantly instead of once in a couple of years, without almost any accountability from those who’re in power as it works in republic.
I disagree that the free market is democratic because hedge funds and the richest people in our society control all of the “votes” in a free market, even after taxes. This can probably be blamed on capitalism, stock markets, and money-driven lobbying.
First of all lobbying and any other intrusion into fair competition is incompatible with free market.
As for the “rich” — without government enforced monopolies, their wealth is a representation of how much value they provide to society. Which roughly translates into their support by society. A bit like representative democracy, but more decentralized.
By that logic, thieves are virtuous and valued by society. In reality, the wealthy are creating value for themselves and their peers, and we operate on a system more like $1 = 1 vote, rather than 1 person = 1 vote. This system is usually called a plutocracy.
By that logic, thieves are virtuous and valued by society.
Thieves are forced to return what they stole, they don’t (usually) accumulate capital
In reality, the wealthy are creating value for themselves and their peers
Could you please provide an example? Even something like Apple products (luxuries) are used by people that can’t be called rich. So it’s hard for me to understand how wealthy could create their separate economy
Depends on your definition of theft. I define theft to include the net profits that are not shared with the workers.
how would you describe their separate economy…
Most of us don’t get to participate in IPOs and hedge funds. The capital needed for that has been stolen from us by people who refuse to share with us the fruits of our labor.
libertarianism is when no one works together appararently.
Of course not, because that would be sharing, and communism is when sharing
@IntheMesh
@RothyBuyak
True story about what happened when libertarian-ism went into overdrive in a New Hampshire town.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
That was a fun read.
Of course, because “every organization is less effective than individual” :P
Additionally it’s “literally socialism”
They don’t want to admit it but they are just a few steps away from anarchy.
Soo the, we got problems to big for one person alone to solve. If we let every fucker do whatever he wants we going down fast. We need inteligente population orientated to something good, organizerd trough democracy.
bUt i wANt mY GuNS AnD My moNEY.
They say while driving in public rodes with protection from a government that doesn’t let companies poison their air, a gov that replaces the lead pipes, that conducts international policies needed for the survival of any contry…
Eddit:typos
The way Libertarians claim, in the broad sense, they are literally the same as anarchists.
However, most of the time when you get into the details, they just want the government to protect them doing whatever they want and oppress others. They’re literally the same as conservatives.
I kind of get your post, but you should seriously proof read it. I don’t even know what the last sentence means
They say while driving on public roads provided by a government that doesn’t let companies poison the air or install lead pipes for drinking water
Poisoning the air or water is against the non-aggression principle of libertarianism. People who are okay with harming others are not libertarians, they are just LARPing Republicans.
Public roads is a difference of opinion. If there were private toll roads everywhere with a wireless chip for payment (to fund upkeep of the road) I would not be against that. The government has toll roads as well so I had to get the wireless chip anyway in California since I don’t have exact change on me every time I drive on a bridge. If his higher cost of roads went to keeping them in better order and discouraged people from driving, that would be actually a benefit.
You have every right to your opinion, and you’re welcome to ignore me, but I really don’t understand where you’re coming from on that. I can think of so many issues with having a privatized road system. Just off the top of my head,
How do these companies get the land? Every libertarian I’ve asked this of has gone on about how the railroads didn’t need government help to get their land, which is provably false (sources 1,2,3). So given that the land is taken by the government then given or sold to the railroads, (or in our case roads) the government is still in the position of forcing the trade and choosing which companies get it.
Then we get to the topic of necessary monopoly. If we don’t have a monopoly in charge of a large chunk of land, turning right will cost you an extra $10 as opposed to going straight. For that matter going straight more than 5 miles may cost you an extra $10. (I’m hoping this is uncontroversial enough to not require a source). This is the reason that we have utilities (of which private roads are - at least in my state- already one (source 4)), but this means that the government gets to say how much they’re allowed to charge (source 5). If they don’t place this regulation, people that live at one end of a private road and work at the other will be required to pay extortionist prices, because there can only be so many roads to get from point a to b. If we do keep those requirements then this is no longer a benefit of using private roads.
Then there’s the price difference for the consumer. This one requires some pre-amble.
New Jersey has a population of 9.288 million
Michigan has a population of 10.077 million
(both source 6)
Michigan roads are funded primarily through a (shockingly high) gas tax of 19c/gal (7). (It’s largely so high because the wild temperature varrations damage the roads.) The average American uses 489 gal/year (8) for a total average tax of $92.91/year.
The average new Jersey resident pays very little in gas tax, but they do pay for tolls. I can’t find an average, but last year the state got ~2 billion (9) in tolls divided by the total number of residents from earlier we can roughly estimate they paid 215.33/year. (This fails to take into account visitors, but in the reverse direction it also fails to account for children and those not driving)
This is in a toll system that, unlike a private one, does not need to turn a profit. To your point on road maintenance being better for toll roads - according to Consumer Affairs NJ is raked 27th in the country for it, while Michigan is 20th (10). US news has NJ at 40, and Michigan at 30 (11).
In the end of the day, it seems to me that people will pay more to drive, and the government will still have such a high level of control of the road system that any benefit that could be found in privatization is lost.
Sources:
Pretty much everyone admits it. Minarchist (pro minimal govt) flag is literally ancap with black changed to blue.
Free Market is essentially a “continuous democratic process”. If what somebody does benefit people, he gets incentivised with profits. If people see no value in what he’s doing – he gets losses. And if in the process of " doing whatever he wants" he does any harm to others ge gets sued.
And all of this happens constantly instead of once in a couple of years, without almost any accountability from those who’re in power as it works in republic.
I disagree that the free market is democratic because hedge funds and the richest people in our society control all of the “votes” in a free market, even after taxes. This can probably be blamed on capitalism, stock markets, and money-driven lobbying.
First of all lobbying and any other intrusion into fair competition is incompatible with free market.
As for the “rich” — without government enforced monopolies, their wealth is a representation of how much value they provide to society. Which roughly translates into their support by society. A bit like representative democracy, but more decentralized.
By that logic, thieves are virtuous and valued by society. In reality, the wealthy are creating value for themselves and their peers, and we operate on a system more like $1 = 1 vote, rather than 1 person = 1 vote. This system is usually called a plutocracy.
Thieves are forced to return what they stole, they don’t (usually) accumulate capital
Could you please provide an example? Even something like Apple products (luxuries) are used by people that can’t be called rich. So it’s hard for me to understand how wealthy could create their separate economy
Depends on your definition of theft. I define theft to include the net profits that are not shared with the workers.
Most of us don’t get to participate in IPOs and hedge funds. The capital needed for that has been stolen from us by people who refuse to share with us the fruits of our labor.
“But you work for a wage that you agreed to take”
Because the other option is to starve to death.
That’s pessimistic… Food can be grown…
How businesses would innovate without accumulating capital? What happens if they suffer a loss? What would they pay their workers?
IMO it’s not theft, it’s just a price you’re paying for someone else to deal with risc possible losses while providing you stable income.
Not talking about reserch, marketing and realization of goods/services, that someone without capital can’t do on their own.
Some people having exponentially more votes than others is not democratic.